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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
scordova:
There is a very strong connection of thermodynamic entropy with temperature...
I wonder why that is. scordova:
There is a very strong connection of thermodynamic entropy with temperature, and by way of contrast I don’t see design space entropies connected to temperature...
So. What. scordova:
There is a very strong connection of thermodynamic entropy with temperature, and by way of contrast I don’t see design space entropies connected to temperature, thus 2LOT seems the wrong tool to argue for improbability.
It just doesn't follow. In fact, you could not be more wrong. 2LOT is all about probability. So is statistical mechanics.
Statistical mechanics was the first foundational physical theory in which probabilistic concepts and probabilistic explanation played a fundamental role. - http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/statphys-statmech/
Time to grow up Sal.Mung
April 7, 2015
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Salvador:
Who has been the one misleading and polluting the minds of pro-ID chemistry, physics, and engineering students with “entropy is disorder”? Not me.
ORLY?Mung
April 7, 2015
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Salvador:
Entropy is a state function of a system.
DING! DING! DING! Now watch as Sal walks this back or pretends like he didn't really say it.Mung
April 7, 2015
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ES, you have mail. CJY, I look forward to hearing from you. Many thanks to both.Upright BiPed
April 7, 2015
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phoenix/KS (it seems): A refrigerator is a classic example of a system with energy, mass and info flows, plus shaft wok driving the refrig cycle. Further to this, it is chock full of FSCO/I and is produced in a factory with energy, mass and info flows driving energy converters and constructors to create an FSCO/I rich entity. These two tiers of process exhaust waste heat and mass, typically, thus having exactly the sort of relevant compensation that fits with 2LOT. In particular by manipulating phase changes and linked temperatures, it manages to pump heat out of a cold storage unit to a reservoir at a higher temperature, the ambient atmosphere. Even if Sewell may have made a mistake somewhere, the effect would be minor, and the substantial point will stand. Not, that I expect that to be recognised at this stage. KFkairosfocus
April 7, 2015
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keiths, It goes wrong with these words: "Granville genuinely believes..." Only someone who is desperate would say something like that about someone else without direct evidence of that person actually saying it. So perhaps you should take it up with Granville. Anything less shows you to be very desperate indeed.Joe
April 7, 2015
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Re: the Sewell 2LOT freezer, all I have to say is there is an organization elephant in the kitchen that you are missing, Phoenix. I'll get back to that later. I don't want Keiths to feel left out for too long.CJYman
April 7, 2015
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Phoenix: "Granville launched a bizarre attack on a position that ID critics don’t hold." That's great! Then ID critics agree with his conclusions, as I've restated according to my understanding of the main issue, regardless of how he arrived at that conclusion. It really is unfortunate that it took so long to get to this point. But, alas, here we are. And in the interest of no more useless argumentation and allowing other ID critics to speak for themselves, I will repost my understanding of the compensation argument that has been under discussion for quite some time now that Phoenix appears to agree with: "The ID argument re: 2LOT is both a pro- and anti-compensation argument in different senses. First, it is pro-compensation in the fact that compensation is required for dS less than 0. This is something that everyone here seems to agree with. And that is to be expected since it is at the foundation of 2LOT. The ID argument is anti-compensation in the sense that it is against the idea that compensation by merely opening up a system to heat flow can change the direction of all probabilistic processes. And this is something that everyone appears to agree with as well." ... now back to our regular program ...CJYman
April 7, 2015
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Joe,
I read the comment keiths.
Then show us where it goes wrong. Granville genuinely believes that the only way for "W-order" (LOL) to increase is for W-order -- actual ordered water molecules -- to be imported into the system:
Stated in terms of order, Eq. (5) says that the X-order in an open system cannot increase faster than it is imported through the boundary. According to (4), the X-order in a system can decrease in two different ways: it can be converted to disorder (first integral term) or it can be exported through the boundary (boundary integral term). It can increase in only one way: by importation through the boundary.
Needless to say, a freezer doesn't require the importation of "W-order" (LOL). "E-order" (LOL) in the form of electricity is quite sufficient.phoenix
April 7, 2015
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I read the comment keiths. You are either insane or desperate. But then again you actually think that unguided evolution would produce a nested hierarchy...Joe
April 7, 2015
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Joe,
Only an imbecile would say something like that.
You're unwittingly insulting Granville, because his reasoning leads directly to that ridiculous conclusion, believe it or not. Read the comment.phoenix
April 7, 2015
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keiths is desperate:
Yet by Granville’s logic, a freezer violates the Second Law.
Only an imbecile would say something like that. Enter keiths...Joe
April 7, 2015
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niwrad #500:
You accuse me that my arguments are not quantitative and measurable. This accusation applies to yours as well. Quantify/measure your arguments and I will do the same to mine.
You're the one proposing a law of nature, not me! How is your 'second law of organization' useful if no one can tell whether it's actually violated or not?phoenix
April 7, 2015
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And finally this:
keiths on April 7, 2015 at 2:40 am said: CJYman,
Can we just ignore 2LOT because we are dealing with a system of inelastic collisions, even if an enabler is present?
We can’t ignore the Second Law of Thermodynamics, but we can certainly ignore the Second Law of Basketball Dynamics. The SLoBD is a fiction, only obtainable in a magic world where basketballs collide in a perfectly elastic way. Similarly, we can’t ignore the First Law of Thermodynamics, but we can certainly ignore the First Law of Basketball Dynamics. The FLoBD, like the SLoBD, is a fiction. Think about what happens in the real Basketball World (as opposed to the idealized, elastic-collision version): The kinetic energy of the basketballs is converted to heat as they slow down, so energy is conserved. The FLoT is honored. The thermodynamic entropy of the basketballs increases as they heat up, so the SLoT is also honored. The FLoBD and SLoBD are not honored. As I said above, just because you can define an entropy doesn’t mean that the second law applies to it. The second law is a thermodynamic law, not a general law applying to all possible entropies.
phoenix
April 7, 2015
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Thank you Phoenix. It is hard tracking and commenting on two threads at once, especially with limited time. On this thread alone every time I have time to glance through the comments another 50 have appeared.CJYman
April 7, 2015
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Followed by this:
keiths on April 7, 2015 at 2:11 am said: CJYman,
God, Buddha, or a scientist outside of the boundaries of basketball world (the details are irrelevant), or an impersonal shaker for those with a natural aversion to all things ID, begins to shake Basketball world and while shaking (not stirring — pardon my attempt at injecting some lame humor), removes the divider.
By shaking Basketball World, you are imparting energy to it. It’s no longer an isolated system and no longer comparable to the container of gas. If you don’t continue to shake Basketball World, then the balls will eventually come to rest. In other words, T_bw will approach “absolute zero” and S_bw will decrease. Basketball World does not obey the First and Second Laws of Basketball Dynamics. Why the difference? In Basketball World, the kinetic energy of the basketballs is converted to heat within the basketballs due to inelastic collisions. T_bw decreases as the kinetic energy of the basketballs “drains” out. In the container of gas, the kinetic energy of the molecules doesn’t decrease, because there’s no place for the energy to go. Unlike basketballs, molecules can’t heat up “inside”, and energy can’t leave the container due to its perfect insulation. In short: Basketball World doesn’t obey the First and Second Laws. The container of gas does. The moral of the story: It’s possible to define entropies for all kinds of systems, but it’s a serious mistake to assume that the second law applies to all such entropies.
phoenix
April 7, 2015
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Then came CJYman's comment, which is reproduced in #506 above.phoenix
April 7, 2015
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Followed by this comment:
keiths on April 3, 2015 at 12:59 am said: So why isn’t Basketball World possible? For a simple reason: in real life, the collisions aren’t perfectly elastic. If you drop a basketball (even in a vacuum so that air resistance isn’t a factor) on a flat surface, it won’t bounce forever. The kinetic and potential energy of the basketball will get converted into heat. The basketball and the surface will warm up. If we tried to create Basketball World in real life, it wouldn’t work, because the inelastic collisions would cause the basketballs to lose kinetic energy. T_bw would spontaneously decrease, and the basketballs would eventually stop moving. Basketball energy is not conserved. In other words, the First Law of Basketball Dynamics doesn’t hold true, because basketballs don’t behave like gas molecules. The kinetic energy of basketballs can be converted to heat within the basketballs through inelastic collisions. This is not possible for gas molecules. By similar reasoning, the Second Law of Basketball Dynamics also doesn’t hold true. So when you try to apply the 2LoT to an arrangement of macroscopic objects like basketballs, using microstates that are defined in terms of the possible arrangements, you are misapplying the 2LoT.
phoenix
April 7, 2015
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The exchange with CJYman begain with this comment:
keiths on April 3, 2015 at 12:27 am said: I think CJYman is genuinely trying to understand this stuff, so let me answer his latest question in some detail. Piotr or Sal, could you let CJYman know that I’ve responded and post a link to this comment at UD? Thanks. CJYman: Is there any reason, logical, mathematical, or otherwise other than personal preference why ‘S’ cannot in principle refer to multiplicity of energy flow macrostate (still thermodynamic entropy) as measured in non-J/K terms, presuming sufficiently rigorous definition and measurement of said macrostate? If the answer is no, there is no good reason why that can’t be the case, then why would we not include that under 2LOT, presuming we are not making any changes to the definition of 2LOT as the direction of energy dissipation measured by change in thermodynamic entropy. CJYman, Let me give an example of a system in which the entropy isn’t expressed in J/K units but in which a version of the second law nevertheless holds true. Then I’ll explain why this isn’t possible in “real life”. We’re all familiar with textbook illustrations of a gas enclosed in a rigid container. The molecules are zipping around at high speed, bouncing off each other and the walls of the container. The collisions are perfectly elastic. In such a system, the temperature is defined in terms of the average kinetic energy of the molecules, and the pressure is the consequence of zillions of collisions between the gas molecules and the walls of the container. We can measure the macrostate, but we have no idea what each of the gas molecules is doing — in other words, the microstate is unknown. The entropy is defined in terms of the number of microstates that are compatible with what we know about the macrostate. Now imagine that we create a similar system on a much larger scale. This time we use gazillions of basketballs instead of gas molecules. The basketballs are zipping around in an evacuated chamber at enormous speeds, bouncing off each other and the walls. The collisions are perfectly elastic. Let’s call this system “Basketball World”. In the real world, the temperature T is defined as the average kinetic energy of the gas molecules. In Basketball World, we can define an an analogous T_bw as the average kinetic energy of the basketballs. We can do something similar for the other macrostate variables. Now, note that Basketball World is part of the real world. That means that each basketball has its own internal temperature and pressure due to the gas molecules it contains, but these are not the same as the “temperature” and “pressure” of Basketball World. In other words, T is not equal to T_bw and can vary independently of it. Likewise for P and P_bw. For example, if we have a bunch of really hot basketballs moving slowly in Basketball World, then each basketball’s T will be high while T_bw will be low. We can also have a bunch of ice cold basketballs moving at extreme speeds, in which case each basketball’s T will be low while T_bw will be high. We can define macrostates and microstates for Basketball World, and so there can be a Basketball World entropy that is analogous to the real world entropy. Like T_bw and P_bw, this S_bw is separate from the real world entropy and can change independently. Is there a second law for Basketball World entropy that corresponds to the 2LoT? You bet. Since Basketball World is an isolated system, and since it is exactly analogous to the “gas molecules in a container” model, we can say that S_bw will never spontaneously decrease. In other words, we have a version of the second law that fits your criteria: it is about energy dispersal, but the units are not the real world J/K, but rather Basketball World units: J_bw/K_bw. There is also a First Law of Basketball Dynamics that requires the conservation of basketball energy. In my next comment, I’ll explain why Basketball World and the First and Second Law of Basketball World Dynamics are not possible in reality.
phoenix
April 7, 2015
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CJYman #505:
There appears to still be confusion concerning how the ID proponents here are viewing the ‘compensation’ argument. First, of course 2LOT is intricately connected with ‘compensation.’ The ID argument re: 2LOT is both a pro- and anti-compensation argument in different senses. First, it is pro-compensation in the fact that compensation is required for dS less than 0. This is something that everyone here seems to agree with. And that is to be expected since it is at the foundation of 2LOT. The ID argument is anti-compensation in the sense that it is against the idea that compensation by merely opening up a system to heat flow can change the direction of all probabilistic processes. And this is something that everyone appears to agree with as well. So, unless someone speaks up and disagrees with the above two points, then everyone here appears to agree with Granville’s conclusions regardless of his method of arriving at those conclusions. Does this seem to be an apt description of where we are at in this discussion?
Here's a more accurate description: 1. Granville launched a bizarre attack on a position that ID critics don't hold. 2. He erroneously invoked the 2LoT as part of his attack. 3. He developed an absurd and incorrect argument based on "X-entropies", each with an accompanying Second Law, to define what legitimate "compensation" looks like. Yet by Granville's logic, a freezer violates the Second Law. Setting Granville's nonsense aside, I think we can agree that shining sunlight on a rock won't make it burst into song, and that ID critics have never claimed otherwise.phoenix
April 7, 2015
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The exchange with CJYman begins here at TSZ. I'll cross-post the relevant comments for convenience.phoenix
April 7, 2015
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Upright Biped, I actually haven't had a chance to email you yet. I'll try to do so today just to test and set up comms.CJYman
April 7, 2015
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Here is my post at TSZ: I stated: “1. How can 2LOT not cover energy flow configurations that are not measured in J/K, that are highly constrained (low multiplicity) and required for building a 747 for example?” Keiths: “Does he think that the 2LoT is violated every time an airplane is built?” I presume that you just haven’t been able to follow all of my comments. No fault of your own of course. There have been a few threads relevant to this ongoing discussion and I’ve tried to follow through with them and provide some comment but time is tight and my comments are scattered across a few threads. At least you are asking a question rather than engaging in outright uncharitable reading. That is much appreciated. Anyway, I have explicitly stated elsewhere that nothing can ever violate 2LOT. Think about it. As I see it, if a person thought that 2LOT could be violated there would be no sense in an appeal to 2LOT as an arbiter of what can or cannot occur. Referring to an ‘apparent’ violation based on certain ‘givens’ … well that is another story altogether that I have already explained. It is the spontaneous & long term negative change in entropy without a discussion of the proper compensation that ID proponents are ‘on about.’ Without any details about appropriate compensation, a suggested process that requires a negative change in entropy within a closed or an open system is a process that violates 2LOT. I do not yet know of any ID proponent who holds the opinion that 2LOT can actually be violated. If we thought it could be violated, then we wouldn’t be holding unguided evolution to the standard of 2LOT. I really can’t believe I have to lay this simple concept out for you. Also, I must admit that I am a bit confused as to how you can arrive at “does he think that the 2LOT is violated ……” from my comment. Could you please expound on your thought process for that one. Unless, of course you are merely trying to score rhetorical points with your buddies and get a chuckle or two. Discussing Basketball world — I am already well aware of at least some of the assumptions required to discuss change in entropy and thus 2LOT. For one, an enabler, ‘motional energy,’ is required; for another ‘restraints’ must be taken into consideration to determine whether a higher level of entropy will indeed be actualized. Entropy always increases unless there exists what I and others have been calling ‘compensation.’ — the “change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time” according to Rudolf Clausius. ‘Basketball 2LOT,’ without an enabler, doesn’t work for the same general reason why we cannot apply 2LOT to just any configuration (or positional) macrostate such as a ‘static’ deck of cards. As a side note, when do gases themselves tend to behave like ideal gases? Under all conditions? Does 2LOT only apply to elastic collisions? Can we just ignore 2LOT because we are dealing with a system of inelastic collisions, even if an enabler is present? Now, for the sake of discussion and understanding, let’s expand your example to dealing with Basketball world starting at a point with no Basketball motion and with all the Basketballs in one corner of Basketball world constrained by a divider. Now, lets add an enabler. God, Buddha, or a scientist outside of the boundaries of basketball world (the details are irrelevant), or an impersonal shaker for those with a natural aversion to all things ID, begins to shake Basketball world and while shaking (not stirring — pardon my attempt at injecting some lame humor), removes the divider. Let’s ignore, for the moment, that we are not measuring a macrostate based on temperature since our concern is merely the positional entropy of the basketballs. Starting at the time that the divider is removed, so long as Basketball world is shaken, the principles which explain how 2LOT works — statistical mechanics — will apply in a real life situation to Basketball world. The only difference is in our measured macrostate. In this instance we are measuring a positional-dynamic system rather than a thermodynamic system. However, the same probabilistic math grounding statistical thermodynamics would explain the increase in configuration entropy of Basketball world, therefore there is no way that during the time that an enabler is present Basketball world will violate the principles upon which statistical thermodynamics is grounded (which deals with terms of configuration/positional entropy). By extension, if someone were to argue that a positional-dynamic (enabler present) system could show a spontaneous, sustained drop in entropy without appropriate compensation they would have to argue that the principles upon which statistical thermodynamics is grounded are wrong and that 2LOT could indeed be violated. From that understanding, we can arrive at Granville’s whole point. Pick the source of your enabler, tornado or energy flow from the sun, merely opening up your system on its own does nothing to reverse certain positional-dynamic processes. Basically, it doesn’t automatically make the improbable more probable in all cases. Do you have a problem with this conclusion? Similarly, what about the process of applied energy to a deck of cards or using a continuously shuffled deck of cards as an analogy for a lesson on 2LOT? Now you have a dynamic system of distinguishable microstates and potentially well defined macrostates that follow the same rules upon which statistical thermodynamics is built. The main difference of course is that you are measuring a macrostate not defined in terms of temperature. The energy transfer required to shuffle a deck of cards and position those cards in certain configurations definitely is a real world problem and I will be arguing at uncommondescent (I have just begun to do so) that there is a definite connection between energy macrostates and certain configuration macrostates such as seen in a deck of cards. This will bring us into the realm of 2LOT by dealing with energy flow dynamics and change in entropy, the dynamics of which will be able to be explained by the principles of statistical thermodynamics. And finally, what I am ‘on about’ is providing conclusions from premises. I would have thought that was quite apparent. In the interest of being more detailed and providing a more proper argument, I have re-phrased my premises and conclusions. Do you have any problems with my new premises, or conclusions given those premises? Am I being clear enough when I lay out my Ps and Cs in a numbered stepwise fashion? Here they are: P1. Probabilities associated with change in configuration multiplicity provides the basis for statistical thermodynamics. P2. Statistical thermodynamics provides the rationale behind why 2LOT exists. Ie: You can make entropy measurements and calculations all day and notice that dS > 0 unless appropriately compensated, but it is the statistics that show how it works. I hesitate to use the term ‘why,’ but statistical thermodynamics explains ‘why’ dS > 0. P3 — extension of P1. If configuration entropy in a dynamic system can move spontaneously from high to low multiplicity without proper ‘compensation’ then the principles of statistical thermodynamics are incorrect. P4 — extension of P2. If the principles of statistical thermodynamics are incorrect, then either the foundation of our understanding of why 2LOT is true is incorrect or 2LOT is itself incorrect. C1 — from P3 & P4. Therefore, the idea of a spontaneous negative change of configuration entropy without proper ‘compensation’ would be a violation of the principles which govern how 2LOT works. C2 — extension of C1. If the possible direction of ‘change in J/K’ measurements as stated in 2LOT are to remain correct as a law, a re-write of the connection between statistical thermodynamics and 2LOT would be required. In the end, when someone says that ‘x’ violates 2LOT, that is a short-hand way of saying that the idea that ‘x’ could occur based on the ‘givens’ associated with ‘x,’ isn’t consistent with the principles which govern 2LOT. I understand the requirement for details and precision when a discussion is underway. What I don’t understand is simply being pedantic and mocking your ‘discussion partner’ instead of asking for clarification if something doesn’t make sense and attempting to understand what they are actually trying to say. You really should try to give the benefit of the doubt sometime. It takes more intelligence to give the benefit of the doubt and attempt to understand an opposing viewpoint than to scoff.CJYman
April 7, 2015
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There appears to still be confusion concerning how the ID proponents here are viewing the 'compensation' argument. First, of course 2LOT is intricately connected with 'compensation.' The ID argument re: 2LOT is both a pro- and anti-compensation argument in different senses. First, it is pro-compensation in the fact that compensation is required for dS less than 0. This is something that everyone here seems to agree with. And that is to be expected since it is at the foundation of 2LOT. The ID argument is anti-compensation in the sense that it is against the idea that compensation by merely opening up a system to heat flow can change the direction of all probabilistic processes. And this is something that everyone appears to agree with as well. So, unless someone speaks up and disagrees with the above two points, then everyone here appears to agree with Granville's conclusions regardless of his method of arriving at those conclusions. Does this seem to be an apt description of where we are at in this discussion? Piotr: " Probability is not an inherent property of “things”. It can be assigned to events that produce those things (and is the measure of the likeliness of their occurrence)." I understand fully that probability is a measurement based on context and I don't think anyone here ever implied that probability is an inherent property so at best it appears that your comment is a distraction. You can still refer to the probability of a thing existing given 'x.' Either way, I've already discussed this in post #325. Also, that understanding is carried through my argument that I posted at TSZ. I'll post it here, in my next comment. Piotr: "If you don’t know how an ordered arrangement has been produced, it’s meaningless to talk about its probability. " Serious?!?!? If we know how something is produced then why would we talk in terms of historical probabilities. Instead, we could refer to probability of something happening to it in the future, ie: probability of failure, etc? Probabilities refer precisely to our level of ignorance of an event or things history or future. But you are partially correct in the sense that we must refer to 'givens' and context, such as heat flow, open and closed systems, unguided processes, time available, 2LOT, etc when discussing these specific probabilities.CJYman
April 7, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Once again assuming Materialism from the get go. The purpose of the thought-experiment is to determine the limits of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. If you allow for creation ex nihilo, then no physical law survives. This was your claim: 2)Assuming the demon is invisible to an outside observer does it appear that the second law has been violated? the answer is of course yes. Your answer was wrong. We provided an experimental version of Maxwell's Demon as an example. You are more than welcome to provide the immaterial version that violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Upright BiPed: Metabolism isn’t the source of organic organization, its the product of it. Here is your statement: I’d ask if you understood that you can’t organize an organism without a local independence from the second law? The organization we call metabolism and growth depends on the flow of entropy. The creation of new cells depends on the flow of entropy.Zachriel
April 7, 2015
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SA: Yes, unfortunately. But that's what we are dealing with. KFkairosfocus
April 7, 2015
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KF
Phoenix continues to distort the truth, exposing attitude and agenda.
You did a nice job exposing the rhetorical tricks and attempt to create traps through ambiguity. As you mentioned, it's evidence of bad faith trolling.
>>1. Does evolution violate the second law? Yes or no?>> a: “Evolution” is hopelessly ambiguous, as long since pointed out.
The term is basically meaningless, in the same way 'common descent' means 'today's organisms came from various, unknown ancestors'.
>>2. Does OOL violate the second law? Yes or no?>> h: Again willfully ambiguous so a direct Y/N cannot reasonably be expected — a typical dirty rhetorical trick.
Well said - it's a dirty trick. Nobody knows what the OOL is.Silver Asiatic
April 7, 2015
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#485 Metabolism isn't the source of organic organization, its the product of it. Asking if metabolism violates the 2LOT is a soundbite.Upright BiPed
April 7, 2015
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phoenix You accuse me that my arguments are not quantitative and measurable. This accusation applies to yours as well. Quantify/measure your arguments and I will do the same to mine.niwrad
April 7, 2015
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Upright Biped, I haven't received an email from you. Unfortunately, I am no longer in academia. I work for a private company. If you mean the Glasgow computing science department group, I left in 2003. I left the Cork Constraints group in 2004. The email redirect that was working on my Glasgow Uni account was set to an email address I have stopped using ages ago. So could you try re-sending your email to this temporary address: eugene dot s dot temp dot 2015 at gmail dot com I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.EugeneS
April 7, 2015
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