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HeKS continues to suggest a way forward on the KS “bomb” argument

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Last week, one of my comments relating to the KS “bomb” argument was made the subject of an OP, which can be found here.

In that comment, I had offered a few preliminary thoughts on Keith’s argument (originally found here, and summarized by him here) and asked a few questions to better understand the assumptions informing his argument. Unfortunately, the issues raised in my OP comment, as far I can tell, were never actually addressed. Instead, the ‘responses’ in the ensuing conversation revolved almost entirely around what the participating ID proponents considered obviously false analogies, which invoked “Planetary Angels”, “Rain Fairies”, “Salt Leprechauns”, and “Toilet Whales”.

Regarding these analogies, Keith, Zachriel, and other ID opponents, seemed to be arguing as though ID claims a designing agent is necessary to explain the shape/pattern of the ‘Objective Nested Hierarchy’ (ONH) into which living organisms are claimed to fall, when the production of  an ONH can be explained by a natural, unguided process of branching descent.  Thus, they claimed, there is no difference between the ID position and one that claims planets are moving in elliptical orbits because angels are choosing to push them around in such orbits, or one that claims salt falls from a salt shaker into a pile on the table because the falling salt is being guided by invisible leprechauns who like making salt piles. The idea here is that in each case we have some superfluous explanatory entity being posited to directly guide some process that looks exactly like it is not being guided, does not need to be guided, and is explained perfectly well by law-based processes.

During the course of the thread it was pointed out to them innumerable times that, even granting the existence of an ONH for life, ID does not and would not cite the shape or production of such an ONH as being an example of something that requires an explanation by reference to an intelligent cause. Rather, in identifying the need for an intelligent cause to explain certain aspects of biology, ID points to the evident infusion of significant amounts of biological information into the world of life, as well as the novel introduction of complex, functionally-specified biological systems and molecular machines. In other words, for its evidence, ID points to aspects of life that do not seem obviously explicable by reference to purely natural processes, whether stochastic or law-based, but that do contain hallmarks that we habitually and uniquely associate with conscious, intelligent, intentional activity. In yet other words, the previously mentioned analogies to “Planetary Angels” and “Salt Leprechauns” are horribly and obviously misguided and entirely off the mark.

Unfortunately, the distinction never seemed to get through to them. And even more unfortunately, the thread was eventually derailed and shut down while a number of conversations were still in progress. Aspects of the discussion, however, continued here.

In that new thread, the Rain Fairies, the Salt Leprechauns, and their most recent common ancestor, the Plantary Angels, have again reared their head, being invoked in response to the objection from ID proponents to the description of microevolution as being “unguided”. The point of the ID proponents in this case relates quite closely to one of the claims in Keith’s so-called “bomb” argument, with which I myself took issue in the previously mentioned OP. In Keith’s summary of his argument, he says that even “the most rabid IDer” admits that “unguided evolution” exists, with the ultimate intention of extrapolating what ID proponents admit happens into what they say does not happen.

Now, when Keith refers to “unguided evolution” here, he is referring to the relatively minor microevolutionary changes that take place within a population, but on the view of ID proponents, these are not the kind of phenomena that could, even in principle, be extrapolated to account for the macroevolutionary innovations that would be necessary to account for the full content of the alleged ONH “Tree of Life”. And in taking issue with the characterization of microevolution as “unguided”, the ID proponent is taking issue with the fact that a phrase that might be uncontroversially applied to a subset of these phenomena is, within the context of Keith’s argument, being over-generalized in a way that implicitly suggests an acceptance by ID proponents of propositions they do not actually accept, and so is a case of illegitimately stealing ground en route to the argument’s conclusion.

In addition to my comments in the original OP, I expanded on them somewhat in a recent comment, which I’ll duplicate here to fill out the remainder of this post and hopefully spur further discussion.

From here:

Now, when it comes to this business of proving that microevolution is unguided, I think there needs to be an understanding of what it would even mean to suggest that it is “guided”. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of people who would dispute claims that microevolution is unguided do not mean that a designer is actively, in the moment, effecting a specific microevolutionary change. Nor would they dispute that random mutations happen. Rather, they would likely dispute that all mutations are random. And they would also likely argue (as I did in the previous thread) that the constrained allowance for – and even rapid increased initiation of – mutations and general genetic and epigenetic changes are a purposeful aspect of the design of organisms to allow for diversification and adaptation (which is sometimes very rapid). If the random variation or shuffling is too large, however, it kills the organism, makes it sterile, or at the very least reduces its reproductive potential, decreasing the chances that the significant defect will be passed on or largely affect subsequent generations of a population.

In other words, the argument is not that random mutations allowing microevolution look unguided but are actually being directly manipulated by some designer. Rather, the argument is that 1) the RM/NS mechanism is a constrained feature of organismal design, and that the Neo-Darwinists are looking at a design feature of a system that makes use of randomization and illegitimately extrapolating it to explain the entire system itself; and 2) that not all mutations/changes are random at all, but some are internally directed in a purposeful manner for the benefit of the organism.

So, it seems to me that, from an ID perspective, saying something like, ‘even IDists admit unguided evolution exists’, is either A) a case of making a trivial claim that cannot be legitimately extrapolated from the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain) to the kinds of macroevolutionary innovations that are theorized (the introduction of complex, functionally-specified systems and molecular machines), or B) a case of making an unwarranted and unsubstantiated claim that the system that allows for and makes use of the RM/NS mechanism for the benefit and diversification of the organism does so by fluke, in a way that is fully unconstrained, and is itself undesigned; or C) both.

Of course, as I’ve said numerous times before, I think this is only one of many issues with Keith’s argument, but it has become quite clear that it is difficult to get even just one criticism seriously addressed in a comment thread, so it would likely be useless to draw in any others at this point. I’m hoping that the nonsensical false analogies about Rain Fairies and Planetary Angels can be left to the side to allow for some kind of substantive discussion of the issues, but I’ve been given little reason to suspect that my hope is grounded.

 

Comments
SB: Show us where HeKS asks us to “ignore the evidence of designs that don’t conform to an ONH.” KeithS offers this passages from HeKS:
Then, of course, everything turned back to the ONH pattern, so I explained that in the field of human design most obviously relevant to life (software development), ONHs are incredibly common, being routinely produced as the result of implementing best-practice design patterns, and so clearly are not nearly so rare in human design as he thought (and made sure to repeatedly invoke) when we consider circumstances that are actually relevant.
HeKS is presuming to tell us what evidence is and isn’t relevant, with no justification.
I don't read it that way at all. He is simply saying that ONH patterns are common in one context and not common in other contexts. That is a long way from saying that we should "ignore evidence of designs that don't conform to an ONH."
How do you explain your Designer’s predilection for mimicking unguided evolution?
I don't agree with that characterization. To mimic unguided evolution, the designer would not have given organisms the appearance of design. Do you agree that organisms appear to be designed?
Why was he so keen to put all but a handful of marsupials in Australia, and all of the cacti in the Americas?
I wouldn't expect unguided evolution do produce a marsupial. I wouldn't expect unguided evolution to produce anything at all for the simple reason that there is nothing in the cause that could produce the effect.
Having invented the gear, why hasn’t he used it in any other species? Reusing complex ideas is something human designers do all the time. Why doesn’t your Designer?
Now you are doing the very same thing that you falsely accused HeKS of doing, asking us to "ignore" the evidence of human designers who do not reuse complex ideas, and presuming to say that the designer never does it (this from the same person who says that we can know nothing about the designer). Here, though, is the difference: HeKS is innocent of the charge you made about him, but you are guilty of the charge that I am making about you.
Why is your Designer so fond of death and suffering, anyway? Why did he build creatures who can’t survive except by killing others? It’s exactly the kind of thing you’d expect unguided evolution to do.
It may well be that something happened that compromised the design. In any case, I wouldn't expect unguided evolution to even get off the ground. It simply doesn't have the juice to produce.StephenB
December 9, 2014
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Well HeKS, you have reduced Keiths to pedantic, argumentative whining. Your patience and tenacity in the face of such juvenile behavior in well noted and appreciated. keiths is not here to to engage but try to embarrass. even his hometurf TSZ is not keen on his style of commentary. Guess maybe why he's been shopping around for new real estate. anyway, as they say in chinese: jia yo, jia yo, jia yo (??,??,?? ); go, go, go!!Steve
December 9, 2014
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LOL. HeKS shows up after a couple of days and immediately claims he’s being misrepresented again. Big surprise.
Yes, Keith. And it is blatant.HeKS
December 9, 2014
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For starters (until tomorrow), to give a more accurate representation of what I've said, I reproduce most of my #885
Keith says:
HeKS is telling us what evidence to pay attention to and what evidence to ignore, and guess what? The evidence he says we should ignore just happens to be the evidence that hurts ID. No doubt that’s just a coincidence.
Hah. Yes, I’m suggesting that we give more weight to the best-practice design decisions made in fields of human design that are most relevant to life rather than giving more or equal weight to the cases that are far less relevant or completely unrelated. How silly of me. . . . . . . .The fact remains that in the field of human design that is clearly very relevant to life, ONHs are produced all the time as a best practice for easily understandable reasons. Any reasonable person should recognize the heavily asymmetric value of this evidence. The fact that you want to ignore it and pretend that I’m the one acting irrationally to support my case is quite telling, Keith.
You just go right ahead with your blatant misrepresentations. Nobody is fooled, Keith.HeKS
December 9, 2014
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HeKS:
LOL. I’m not around for a couple days and I come back to find … Keith misrepresenting me again. Big surprise.
LOL. HeKS shows up after a couple of days and immediately claims he's being misrepresented again. Big surprise.keith s
December 9, 2014
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LOL. I'm not around for a couple days and I come back to find ... Keith misrepresenting me again. Big surprise. Basically every question you just asked to StephenB about me is either a misrepresentation or is answered within the text of my comments on the use of ONHs by programmers. I probably won't be around until the afternoon tomorrow. If StephenB doesn't answer your questions by the time I get here (which could actually be done by pasting in the answers from my previous posts), then I'll do it.HeKS
December 9, 2014
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StephenB, Here for example:
Then, of course, everything turned back to the ONH pattern, so I explained that in the field of human design most obviously relevant to life (software development), ONHs are incredibly common, being routinely produced as the result of implementing best-practice design patterns, and so clearly are not nearly so rare in human design as he thought (and made sure to repeatedly invoke) when we consider circumstances that are actually relevant.
HeKS is presuming to tell us what evidence is and isn't relevant, with no justification. How does he know that software development is "most obviously relevant to life"? He doesn't. How does he know that the vast majority of human designs -- the ones that don't form objective nested hierarchies -- are irrelevant? He doesn't. How does he know that what's considered good practice for human software design is also good practice for an unknown designer pursuing unknown goals via unknown capabilities and unknown resources? He doesn't. How does he know that the designer even cares about following what humans consider to be best practices? He doesn't. Why does he ignore the fact that the class hierarchies of object-oriented programming are hierachies within designs, not across the entire universe of designed systems? He doesn't say, but it just so happens that acknowledging it would weaken his case for ID. HeKS isn't examining the evidence to discern the truth. He's filtering and distorting the evidence to prop up his precommitment to ID. It's painfully obvious. Okay, I answered your question, StephenB. Here are a few that you can answer for me: How do you explain your Designer's predilection for mimicking unguided evolution? Why was he so keen to put all but a handful of marsupials in Australia, and all of the cacti in the Americas? Having invented the gear, why hasn't he used it in any other species? Reusing complex ideas is something human designers do all the time. Why doesn't your Designer? What about those evolutionary arms races? Does your Designer adjust the newts, then decide to adjust the snakes to compensate, then adjust the newts again, then adjust the snakes again, over and over again, for a reason? It makes perfect sense if unguided evolution is operating. Why is your Designer so fond of death and suffering, anyway? Why did he build creatures who can't survive except by killing others? It's exactly the kind of thing you'd expect unguided evolution to do. I look forward to your answers.keith s
December 8, 2014
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Keiths,
1. Unguided evolution predicts an ONH, and ID doesn’t. Solution? Ignore the evidence of designs that don’t conform to an ONH. Why? Because HeKS tells us to. Trust him — he knows which evidence is irrelevant and should be ignored. And it just so happens that the evidence we should ignore is the evidence that hurts ID. Interesting coincidence, no?
OK Keiths, I'll play. Show us where HeKS asks us to "ignore the evidence of designs that don't conform to an ONH."StephenB
December 8, 2014
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IDers, What ever happened to "follow the evidence wherever it leads?" You guys used to love saying that. As soon as you noticed that the evidence leads away from ID, you stopped saying that. 1. Unguided evolution predicts an ONH, and ID doesn't. Solution? Ignore the evidence of designs that don't conform to an ONH. Why? Because HeKS tells us to. Trust him -- he knows which evidence is irrelevant and should be ignored. And it just so happens that the evidence we should ignore is the evidence that hurts ID. Interesting coincidence, no? 2. Biogeography. Why so many species unique to islands? Why marsupials in Australia, but few outside? Why cacti in America, but not in other deserts? All of these are exactly what you would expect if evolution were unguided. So what do IDers do? Ignore the evidence. Evolution only looks unguided, but they know better. 3. Predator-prey arms races. Snake eats newt. Newt evolves toxin to prevent snake from eating it; snake evolves resistance to newt toxin. The cycle continues. Eventually the newt becomes one of the most toxic animals on the planet, yet snakes are still eating them. This is exactly the kind of thing you'd expect from unguided evolution. How do IDers explain it? How is this the expected behavior of a designer? Answer: it isn't. Evolution is unguided. The ONH, biogeography, and evolutionary arms races all point to that conclusion. (And there are plenty more where those came from.) IDers are telling us, "Evolution may look exactly as if it were unguided, but we know better. Don't follow the evidence where it leads. Trust us -- we'll tell you what evidence to consider and what evidence to ignore, what to believe and what not to believe."keith s
December 8, 2014
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CharlieM #961, Pachyaena has been silently banned, so don't expect a reply.keith s
December 8, 2014
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keiths: Your analogies keep getting worse and worse. Pot, Kettle, BlackMung
December 8, 2014
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Phinehas, Your analogies keep getting worse and worse. Now you're talking about a "weather satellite" so massive that it would completely disrupt the weather it was sent to monitor. The designer you have in mind must be pretty dim. It's clear what you're trying to do. You're trying to come up with a case that "my logic" (or rather, your straw man version of it) would attribute to unintelligent causes, when intelligence is clearly required. That isn't my logic. If intelligence is needed, then we should infer intelligence. But you haven't shown that intelligence is needed to explain the diversity and complexity of terrestrial life. UE fits the evidence extremely well, and ID doesn't. Why would a rational person prefer ID?keith s
December 8, 2014
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keiths:
You still don’t get the physics.
And you still don't get that the physics you are so worried about have nothing to do with my argument, but that's OK. I can spell it out for you.
Charon is in a synchronous orbit around Pluto because its large mass slowed Pluto’s rotation through tidal friction. Synchronous satellites above the earth aren’t sufficiently massive to slow earth’s rotation by the required amount, so they must be placed in orbits that are synchronous to begin with. Unintelligent natural processes are a non-starter as an explanation for that.
So, obviously, if we found the mother of all weather satellites in orbit, and it was massive enough to tidal lock the earth's rotation, then we could conclude that no intelligent intervention was required to explain it, right? Right? It's somehow the mass and tidal locking that is crucial to the point being made, right? In the case of a massive, tidal-locking weather satellite, we wouldn't want to infer the involvement of Satellite Angels. You might want to stop digging this hole for yourself, keiths. It is becoming more and more obvious that you cannot address the point being made and would rather discuss distractions.Phinehas
December 8, 2014
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Phinehas, You still don't get the physics. Charon is in a synchronous orbit around Pluto because its large mass slowed Pluto's rotation through tidal friction. Synchronous satellites above the earth aren't sufficiently massive to slow earth's rotation by the required amount, so they must be placed in orbits that are synchronous to begin with. Unintelligent natural processes are a non-starter as an explanation for that. Find another "analogy", or better yet, try to refute my actual argument.keith s
December 8, 2014
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keiths:
Charon didn’t fall into a synchronous orbit, because the orbit wasn’t synchronous until after the tidal locking happened.
So what? You are making a distinction without any real difference. The point which I've been making all along, and which you seemed to not get at all at first and now seem to be deliberately missing, is that satellites can and do reach synchronous orbit through purely natural processes. Whether or not tidal locking is part of that process is a useful distraction I am sure, but a distraction nonetheless. So, since satellites can reach synchronous orbit through purely natural processes quite routinely (as evidenced by the fact that this has occurred to one of the few planetary satellites in our solar system), we needn't invoke any Satellite Angels or other intelligent activity to explain the satellites in synchronous orbit above the earth, right? Since we both know that guided satellites could have been guided to a trillion different places in the universe, we can say with confidence that no intelligent guidance was involved in placing the various communications and weather satellites into geosynchronous orbit, right? The odds would be a trillion to one against an intelligent being guiding them into exactly the same kind of orbit as that taken up by Charon, right? Please tell me you won't make an appeal to Satellite Angels, keiths. Don't forsake Science keiths. Believe.Phinehas
December 8, 2014
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A barrier to macroevolution has been found. And how was it determined that gene duplication is an unguided process?Joe
December 8, 2014
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HeKS:
Believe it or not, Keith, I do have other things to do in life other than responding to you.
That's an odd thing to say, given that I haven't issued deadlines or demanded an immediate response to my questions. We all have lives outside of UD (I hope).
If you actually took in the totality of the context of my comments on this issue you would notice that I have described what we observe as being the overwhelming trend and the kinds of things we generally see. I haven’t claimed it’s impossible that any such things could ever happen, though I don’t find your linked article to be a valid counter-example of “unguided evolution” producing a significant amount of novel functional information to the genome.
Remember, you are arguing for the existence of a barrier to macroevolution. If you concede that unguided processes such as gene duplication can produce "novel functional information", then you are conceding that the production of such information is not an absolute barrier, but at most a quantitative one. In that case you need a quantitative argument showing that amount of "functional information" created by these processes is insufficient to explain what we observe.keith s
December 8, 2014
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Hi Pachyaena. You direct me to #956 so I will in turn direct you to Box's response at #960. it says all that is needed. You imply that I am saying "a lot of really irrelevant things". Well I don't know about you but I was under the impression we were talking about designs and designers. I think you are being illogical when you say this is irrelevant. I used to think that proteins were produced inside the cell and then they randomly jostled around until they reached a place where they were needed. I used to believe this because this was how it was portrayed. Unguided randomness was the order of the day and it fitted in well with established biological thinking. But now with modern viewing techniques we see organisation, guidance and sophistacated transport methods. Over the years we have gone from cells being thought of as a sack of goo to cells containing organelles between which various molecules bump around haphazardly. DNA does not make cells; cells use DNA to make what they need. Now we are beginning to see what a marvel the cell is as demonstrated below: From NCBI
Within cells, membrane-bounded vesicles and proteins are frequently transported many micrometers along well-defined routes in the cytosol and delivered to particular addresses. Diffusion alone cannot account for the rate, directionality, and destinations of such transport processes. Early video light microscopy studies showed that these long-distance movements follow straight paths in the cytosol, frequently along cytosolic fibers, suggesting that transport involves some kind of tracks. Subsequent experiments, using nerve cells and fish-scale pigment cells, first demonstrated that microtubules function as tracks in the intracellular transport of membrane-bounded vesicles and organelles, and that movement is propelled by microtubule motor proteins
So much for the micro scale, what about the macro scale? We have been lead to believe that there is no guidance in the forms that organisms take over the course of evolution, they are jostling around filling niches in the same way that cellular molecules were thought to jostle around to reach their location. But now we are beginning to see that its not an infinite landscape. Living forms must go down certain channels. Think of marsupials and their placental equivalents or the sonar of bats and cetaceans. The more we learn the more organisation and guidance becomes apparent. The establishment does not give up its entrenched ideas easily but when it comes down to it facts have to be dealt with, they cannot be brushed under the carpet.CharlieM
December 7, 2014
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Pachyaena,
Box: The point is to make as few unsupported assumptions about the designer as possible, because unsupported assumptions are, well, unsupported.
Pachyaena: Then you IDers should stop making unsupported assumptions, right?
Yes, we all should strive for as few unsupported assumptions as possible; in accord with the law of parsimony aka Occam’s razor.
Box: For one, Keith makes the unsupported assumption that the designer can do anything; trillions of options are available et cetera; IOW that the designer is (just about) omnipotent.”
Pachyaena: There you go again putting limits on ‘the designer’.
Can you point out exactly where I put limits on the designer? Objecting to Keith's unwarranted assumption of omnipotence doesn’t equal putting limits on the designer. Saying “Keith, we cannot know this, so you have no warrant for your assumption”, is not the same as putting limits on the designer. Saying “we don’t know” is not equal to saying “the designer is limited”.
Pachyaena: Why are you assuming that ‘the designer’ isn’t or can’t be omnipotent, (…)
I’m not saying that She is omnipotent or that She is not omnipotent. I’m saying that ‘we don’t know’ and have no warrant for assuming that the designer is omnipotent or not or something in between.
Pachyaena: (…) especially since most IDers (including the ones who founded and are ‘leading’ the ‘ID movement’) believe (assume) that the allegedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, perfect, imaginary (assumed) Abrahamic god is ‘the designer’?
You may very well be right about their personal believes and BTW I personally don’t believe in an Abrahamic God. However the scientific definition of intelligent design does not include an Abrahamic God.
Dembski: “intelligent design is compatible with external design imposed by a conscious personal intelligent agent. But it is not limited to this understanding of teleology in nature. In fact, it is open to whatever form teleology in nature may take provided that the teleology is real.” “Intelligence therefore need not merely refer to conscious personal intelligent agents like us, but can also refer to teleology quite generally.” "The definition of intelligent design just given, which explicitly cites real teleology and does not restrict itself to external design, (…)" -- See #382 and #385
Pachyaena: Ultimately it doesn’t matter which imaginary (assumed) supernatural-designer-creator-god you IDers believe in (assume) because you’re still promoting an assumed supernatural-designer-creator-god whether you admit or not.
You need to make a distinction between personal beliefs and a position on intelligent design in a scientific context. As a matter of fact ID doesn’t hold a position on 'the designer'. ID is about design detection. Once design is detected, ID steps aside and let others speculate on the consequences of this discovery. You are dismissive of ID based on the alleged motives of the leaders of ID. Allow me to quote William J Murray:
Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory. Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.
Box
December 7, 2014
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HeKS said: "...I don’t find your linked article to be a valid counter-example of “unguided evolution” producing a a significant amount of novel functional information to the genome." HeKS, see my comment at 919. And what would be a "significant amount of novel functional information"? How would you determine/calculate/measure it? Where should the line be drawn between significant and non-significant, and why? I'm curious as to how you would answer this question: Does a person born with two heads have a significant (or any) amount of novel functional information in their genome?Pachyaena
December 7, 2014
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CharlieM said: "Pachyaena it is you who is making unwarrented assumptions about the designer and about those that believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, perfect, supernatural-designer-creator-god. You are assuming that everything that has ever existed has been designed by this being. You assume that God and the designer are one and the same." See my response to Box at 956. "Put it this way, ask any of these believers who designed the synthetic genome at the Craig Ventner Institute. How many of them do you think will say, “God did”? Do we attribute the creation of Michaelangelo’s “David” to God? What about nuclear weapons, did God design them, or did he allow humans the freedom to be able to design them? What do you think and what do you think believers in a creator God would say?" I think that "believers in a creator God" will say a lot of really irrelevant things in their attempts to mask their beliefs and agenda, including irrelevant things about synthetic genomes, statues, and nuclear bombs.Pachyaena
December 7, 2014
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Keith,
Now let’s talk about the bind that HeKS has gotten himself into. He claimed:
The problem is that the type of “unguided evolution” we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome.
Now he has to argue that no gene duplication event ever leads to “novel functional information” without intelligent guidance — or else he has to argue that such events don’t really count as “novel functional information”.
Uh, no I don't. If you actually took in the totality of the context of my comments on this issue you would notice that I have described what we observe as being the overwhelming trend and the kinds of things we generally see. I haven't claimed it's impossible that any such things could ever happen, though I don't find your linked article to be a valid counter-example of "unguided evolution" producing a significant amount of novel functional information to the genome.HeKS
December 7, 2014
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Box said: "The point is to make as few unsupported assumptions about the designer as possible, because unsupported assumptions are, well, unsupported." Then you IDers should stop making unsupported assumptions, right? "For one, Keith makes the unsupported assumption that the designer can do anything; trillions of options are available et cetera; IOW that the designer is (just about) omnipotent." There you go again putting limits on 'the designer'. Why are you assuming that 'the designer' isn't or can't be omnipotent, especially since most IDers (including the ones who founded and are 'leading' the 'ID movement') believe (assume) that the allegedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, perfect, imaginary (assumed) Abrahamic god is 'the designer'? Ultimately it doesn't matter which imaginary (assumed) supernatural-designer-creator-god you IDers believe in (assume) because you're still promoting an assumed supernatural-designer-creator-god whether you admit or not. "And we simply don’t know that." Tell that to all of your fellow IDers who believe that they do "know". "ID doesn’t make such assumptions about the designer. ID is about design detection – not to be equated with the believe in an Abramic God." Tell that to Dembski, Meyer, West, Ahmanson, Luskin, Phillip Johnson, Gauger, Axe, Behe, kairosfocus, bornagain77, Joe G, Egnor, WL Craig, McLatchie, Kenyon, O'leary, Barry Arrington, and all the other IDers who make tons of unsupported assumptions about 'the designer' and who believe (assume) and claim that 'the designer' is the imaginary (assumed) Abrahamic god. "So, in the piece you quoted, I was informing Keith, that he made unsupported assumptions about the designer." Keith's assumptions are certainly no less supported than yours are and since most or all IDers believe in and promote an assumed, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, perfect supernatural-designer-creator-god, Keith's assumptions and points are very reasonable. "For all we know the designer is an alien with only one option. We have no way of knowing." Oh come on. That "alien" schtick is old and lame. Who or what designed-created the "alien" and why are you assuming that the "alien" had/has only one option? Look, the bottom line is that you IDers are the ones pushing 'intelligent design' which HAS TO INCLUDE 'the intelligent designer'. You're the ones who have to support your ID claims (assumptions).Pachyaena
December 7, 2014
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Keith,
You wrote:
The problem is that the type of “unguided evolution” we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome.
I responded:
HeKS, You’re not keeping up with the science: Gene Genesis: Scientists Observe New Genes Evolving from Mutated Copies Can you defend your claim, or do you concede your error?
Believe it or not, Keith, I do have other things to do in life other than responding to you. I've been trying to get you to address any of my arguments for almost 3 weeks. Finally you respond to a sentence with a link and 5 hours later you're repeating it and insisting I defend myself or concede my error. Get over yourself. Moving on... First of all, my full statement was:
The problem is that the type of “unguided evolution” we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome. It slightly alters and degrades genetic information, and it breaks existing functions or sometimes fixes functions that had previously been broken by simple point mutations, but we do not see it adding brand new complex (in the sense of “many well-matched parts”) functionality that didn’t exist before.
I also said:
We do not observe mutations adding up to produce novel complex functionality; not even when we’re the ones instigating the mutations through extensive mutagenesis experiments. Generally, the best we can hope for is that some regulatory switch will get thrown to allow an organism to do in one environment or context something that it already does in another environment or context.
As I've said a few times now, this is the overwhelming trend.
...the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain)
These are the kinds of things we overwhelmingly see under realistic conditions, without eliminating the possibility that every now and then something interesting or unlikely could happen. That said, when I clicked on your link and read the article I recalled Behe writing about this when it happened a few years ago. By the time I came back here Box had already beat me to the punch in linking to Behe's comments. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be indicative of what unguided evolution is supposed to be able to typically do under realistic conditions. It is indicative of what scientists are able to do when they start with ideal initial conditions and then use their experimentally derived knowledge to remove obstacles, prevent failure and ensure continued favorable circumstances at key steps to produce exactly what it is they were intending. Are you really trying to say that you think nature could be expected to routinely jump through these kinds of hoops? Turning to a more realistic scenario, Gauger et al published a 2010 article called, Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking Simple Adaptive Paths to High Fitness. Here's the abstract:
New functions requiring multiple mutations are thought to be evolutionarily feasible if they can be achieved by means of adaptive paths-successions of simple adaptations each involving a single mutation. The presence or absence of these adaptive paths to new function therefore constrains what can evolve. But since emerging functions may require costly over-expression to improve fitness, it is also possible for reductive (i.e., cost-cutting) mutations that eliminate over-expression to be adaptive. Consequently, the relative abundance of these kinds of adaptive paths--constructive paths leading to new function versus reductive paths that increase metabolic efficiency--is an important evolutionary constraint. To study the impact of this constraint, we observed the paths actually taken during long-term laboratory evolution of an Escherichia coli strain carrying a doubly mutated trpA gene. The presence of these two mutations prevents tryptophan biosynthesis. One of the mutations is partially inactivating, while the other is fully inactivating, thus permitting a two-step adaptive path to full tryptophan biosynthesis. Despite the theoretical existence of this short adaptive path to high fitness, multiple independent lines grown in tryptophan-limiting liquid culture failed to take it. Instead, cells consistently acquired mutations that reduced expression of the double-mutant trpA gene. Our results show that competition between reductive and constructive paths may significantly decrease the likelihood that a particular constructive path will be taken. This finding has particular significance for models of gene recruitment, since weak new functions are likely to require costly over-expression in order to improve fitness. If reductive, cost-cutting mutations are more abundant than mutations that convert or improve function, recruitment may be unlikely even in cases where a short adaptive path to a new function exists.
Furthermore, is this the type of thing that you think can be extrapolated to account even for complex molecular machines, much less major body plan changes? BTW, I don't expect I'll be around tomorrow so I might not have a chance to read anything further till sometime on Monday. P.S. I just saw your response to Box. Your comment, "What’s next? Will Behe be complaining about the use of Petri dishes in experiments?" seems highly absurd. You seriously think the multiple manipulations they made to the conditions of the experiment are comparable the use of Petri dishes? If so, why don't you email Mike Behe and tell him so?HeKS
December 7, 2014
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Keith #952, Unfortunately you have missed the point of Behe's rebuttal. Behe has no complaints about the experiment an sich, but rejects the notion that it relates to unguided evolution. In fact Behe shows that Näsvall's experiment has nothing to do with unguided evolution. In Behe's own words:
- They deleted an enzyme that previous work showed could likely be replaced. - They added the necessary nutrient histidine because previous work showed that mutations conferring an ability to make tryptophan destroyed the ability to make histidine. - The added histidine would have shut off production of the protein, so they removed the genetic control element to keep it in production. - Later, once they found mutations to produce tryptophan, they removed histidine from the medium to encourage the production of mutations restoring histidine synthesis. Roll the ball to the left to avoid one obstacle, roll it backward to avoid another, turn the maze over to drop the ball into the next corridor. . . . Needless to say, this ain't how unaided nature works -- unless nature is guiding events toward a goal.
Box
December 7, 2014
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Now let's talk about the bind that HeKS has gotten himself into. He claimed:
The problem is that the type of “unguided evolution” we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome.
Now he has to argue that no gene duplication event ever leads to "novel functional information" without intelligent guidance -- or else he has to argue that such events don't really count as "novel functional information". Good luck to him. Meanwhile, the Näsvall experiment demonstrates the very thing that HeKS says can't happen. Will he argue that the Designer had his fingers in the Näsvall experiment? Stay tuned.keith s
December 7, 2014
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Box,
Look up and check out #949 for Behe’s rebuttal.
You forgot to put quote marks around "rebuttal". Behe's response is absurd. Näsvall et al were testing their IAD (innovation-amplification-divergence) model of gene duplication, so of course they set up the relevant conditions to see if the model's predictions would be borne out. They were. That's how it works in experimental science. You artificially set up the conditions, and then you observe what happens to see if your model is correct. Your results then apply to natural scenarios in which those conditions hold. Bifunctional genes do occur in nature, as does selective pressure for the weaker function, so what is Behe complaining about? What's next? Will Behe be complaining about the use of Petri dishes in experiments?keith s
December 7, 2014
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Keith #950, Look up and check out #949 for Behe's rebuttal.Box
December 6, 2014
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HeKS #945, You're good at a) complaining about being ignored, like StephenB and vividbleau, and b) wearing out scroll wheels, like KF and Spamagain77, ...but what readers would like to know is whether you can defend your position. You wrote:
The problem is that the type of “unguided evolution” we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome.
I responded:
HeKS, You’re not keeping up with the science: Gene Genesis: Scientists Observe New Genes Evolving from Mutated Copies
Can you defend your claim, or do you concede your error?keith s
December 6, 2014
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Vivid, How about UT (unguided typing) predicts skruytilwe5yto.vr.aircgu'vn5e9? BTW in #942 Keith links to a 2012 article by Nasvall et al., with the outrageous title "Gene Genesis: Scientists Observe New Genes Evolving from Mutated Copies", which has been rebutted by Behe in the same year.Box
December 6, 2014
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