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On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism

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I have sometimes had the idea that the best way for Intelligent Design advocates to make their case would be to build a giant museum replicating the complexity of the cell on a large scale, so that people could see for themselves how the cell worked and draw their own conclusions. Recently I came across an old quote from biochemist Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Adler and Adler, 1985) which put paid to that idea, but which raised an interesting philosophical puzzle for people who adhere to scientific naturalism – which I define here as the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature]. Here is the first part of the quote from Denton, which I had seen before (h/t Matt Chait):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.

We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules.

We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology.

What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle. (pp. 328 ff.)

Reading this passage vindicated my belief that a museum of the cell would be a great way to promote ID. “If we build it, they will come,” I thought. But there was more to follow, which I hadn’t read before. It turns out that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:

To gain a more objective grasp of the level of complexity the cell represents, consider the problem of constructing an atomic model. Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid.

Copying nature, we could speed up the construction of the model by using small molecules such as amino acids and nucleotides rather than individual atoms. Since individual amino acids and nucleotides are made up of between ten and twenty atoms each, this would enable us to finish the project in less than five million years. We could also speed up the project by mass producing those components in the cell which are present in many copies. Perhaps three-quarters of the cell’s mass can be accounted for by such components. But even if we could produce these very quickly we would still be faced with manufacturing a quarter of the cell’s mass which consists largely of components which only occur once or twice and which would have to be constructed, therefore, on an individual basis. The complexity of the cell, like that of any complex machine, cannot be reduced to any sort of simple pattern, nor can its manufacture be reduced to a simple set of algorithms or programmes. Working continually day and night it would still be difficult to finish the model in the space of one million years. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

But there’s more, as Matt Chait points out (emphasis mine):

And let me add my two cents to this astounding picture. The model that you would complete a million years later would be just that, a lifeless static model. For the cell to do its work this entire twenty kilometer structure and each of its trillions of components must be charged in specific ways, and at the level of the protein molecule, it must have an entire series of positive and negative charges and hydrophobic and hydrophilic parts all precisely shaped (at a level of precision far, far beyond our highest technical abilities) and charged in a whole series of ways: charged in a way to find other molecular components and combine with them; charged in a way to fold into a shape and maintain that most important shape, and charged in a way to be guided by other systems of charges to the precise spot in the cell where that particle must go. The pattern of charges and the movement of energy through the cell is easily as complex as the pattern of the physical particles themselves.

Also, Denton, in his discussion, uses a tennis ball to stand in for an atom. But an atom is not a ball. It is not even a ‘tiny solar system’ of neutrons, protons and electrons’ as we once thought. Rather, it has now been revealed to be an enormously complex lattice of forces connected by a bewildering array of utterly miniscule subatomic particles including hadrons, leptons, bosons, fermions, mesons, baryons, quarks and anti-quarks, up and down quarks, top and bottom quarks, charm quarks, strange quarks, virtual quarks, valence quarks, gluons and sea quarks…

And let me remind you again, that what we are talking about, a living cell, is a microscopic dot and thousands of these entire factories including all the complexity that we discussed above could fit on the head of a pin. Or, going another way, let’s add to this model of twenty square kilometers of breath taking complexity another one hundred trillion equally complex factories all working in perfect synchronous coordination with each other; which would be a model of the one hundred trillion celled human body, your body, that thing that we lug around every day and complain about; that would, spread laterally at the height of one cell at this magnification, blanket the entire surface of the earth four thousand times over, every part of which would contain pumps and coils and conduits and memory banks and processing centers; all working in perfect harmony with each other, all engineered to an unimaginable level of precision and all there to deliver to us our ability to be conscious, to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, and to experience the world as we are so used to experiencing it, that we have taken it and the fantastic mechanisms that make it possible for granted.

My question is, “Why don’t we know this?” What Michael Denton has written and I have added to is a perfectly accurate, easily intelligible, non-hyperbolic view of the cell. Why is this not taught in every introductory biology class in our schools?

Based on the foregoing, I think it’s fair to say that we’ll never be able to construct a computer model of the cell either, down to the atomic level: the computing resources required would just be too huge. And in that case, it will never be scientifically possible to model a natural process (or a set of processes) and demonstrate that it could have given rise to the cell – or even show that it had a greater than 50% probability of doing so.

So here’s my question for the skeptics: if we have no hope of ever proving the idea that the cell could have arisen through unguided natural processes, or even showing this idea to be probably true, then how can we possibly be said to know for a fact that this actually happened? Knowledge, after all, isn’t merely a true belief; it has to be a justified true belief. What could justify the claim that abiogenesis actually occurred?

It gets worse. We cannot legitimately be said to know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that life could have arisen via unguided processes. But if we don’t know the latter, then we cannot know the former. Ergo, scientific naturalism, even if were true, can never be known to be true.

There’s more. Scientific naturalists are fond of claiming that there are only two valid sources of knowledge: a priori truths of logic and mathematics, which can be known through reason alone; and a posteriori empirical truths, which are known as a result of experience and/or scientific inquiry. The statement that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance on the primordial Earth is neither a truth of logic and mathematics nor a truth which can be demonstrated (or even shown to be probable) via experience and/or scientific inquiry. And since we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance, it follows that the truth of scientific naturalism cannot be known through either of the two avenues of knowledge postulated by the skeptic. So either there must be some third source of knowledge (intuition, perhaps?) that the skeptic has to fall back on. Yeah, right.

And please, don’t tell me, “Well, scientists have explained X, Y and Z, so it’s only a matter of time before they can explain life.” First, that’s illicit reasoning: performing inductive logic over a set of things is problematic enough (black swans, anyone?), but performing it over a set of scientific theories, concocted during a time-span of just 471 years – the Scientific Revolution is commonly held to have begun in 1543 – is absolutely ridiculous. And second, as I’ve argued above, there’s good reason to believe that our computing resources will never be up to the task of showing that the first living cell could have arisen via a natural, unguided process.

One last question: if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?

Checkmate, naturalists? Over to you.

Comments
It is dumb luck + NS + trillions of trails in billions of cells + years of time.
NS is impotent and doesn't do anything. And your scenario isn't science as throwing time at the issue isn't science.Joe
November 28, 2014
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The essential confusion of ID is the assumption that there are two different types of causes in the world.
I would say that SETI, archaeology and forensic science also say that.
ID attempts to show that certain features of the universe cannot have arisen by means of “natural causes”, and this supposedly justifies the conclusion that these features are best explained by “intelligent causes”.
That is false and demonstrates a willful ignorance as you have been told that the ID inference must also have a POSITIVE element. It is not enough to eliminate necessity and chance. We have a design criteria that also has to be met.Joe
November 28, 2014
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Terrestrial life doesn’t have the characteristics of a designed phenomenon
Of course it does
and there is a plausible explanation in terms of unintelligent natural processes
Nonsense. Unguided evolution can't even get beyond populations of prokaryotes given starting populations of prokaryotes. So keith's "argument" relies solely on rejecting the obvious and nonsense.Joe
November 28, 2014
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Oh my a bunch of atheists in conversation, they don't know everything, they can't even trust their own thoughts but they know there ain't no God..... Priceless!Andre
November 28, 2014
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And exactly as would be expected on a Theistic view of reality, we find two very different eternities in reality. A ‘infinitely destructive’ eternity associated with General Relativity and a extremely orderly eternity associated with Special Relativity: Special Relativity, General Relativity, Heaven and Hell https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_4cQ7MXq8bLkoFLYW0kq3Xq-Hkc3c7r-gTk0DYJQFSg/editbornagain77
November 28, 2014
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Graham2 you state:
"I believe Dembski's End of Christianity ‘solves’ (mangles?) the problem by proposing that the effects of the Fall go back in time, or something. This is what religion does to the brain."
Dembski states the thesis of "The End Of Christianity' as such:
Old Earth Creationism and the Fall, William Dembski - Christian Research Journal, volume 34, number 4(2011). Excerpt: My solution (to Theodicy) in my book “The End of Christianity is to argue that, just as the effects of salvation at the cross reach both forward in time (saving present day Christians) and backward in time (saving Old Testament saints), so the effects of the fall reach forward in time as well as backward. What makes the argument work is the ability of God to arrange events at one time to anticipate events at a later time.,,, http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAF4344.pdf
In a atheistic/materialistic view of reality this line of reasoning would indeed be, as you hold, nonsense. Yet, as quantum mechanics has now shown, we do not live in a materialistic universe as you presuppose that we do but we instead live in a Theistic universe!
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett's Inequality: Verified, as of 2011, to 120 standard deviations) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
And in the Theistic world of quantum mechanics, having our free will choices reach back in time and effect events in the remote past is not impossible at all but merely all in a days work.
Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm
This following experiment extended Wheeler's delayed choice double slit experiment to highlight the centrality of 'information' in the Double Slit Experiment and refutes any interference 'detector centered' arguments for why the wave collapses:
The Experiment That Debunked Materialism - video - (delayed choice quantum eraser) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKUass7G8w "It begins to look as we ourselves, by our last minute decision, have an influence on what a photon will do when it has already accomplished most of its doing... we have to say that we ourselves have an undeniable part in what we have always called the past. The past is not really the past until is has been registered. Or to put it another way, the past has no meaning or existence unless it exists as a record in the present." - John Wheeler - The Ghost In The Atom - Page 66-68 Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
In other words, if my conscious choices really are just merely the result of whatever state the material particles in my brain happen to be in in the past as materialists hold, (deterministic), how in blue blazes are my choices instantaneously effecting the state of material particles into the past? This experiment is simply impossible for any coherent materialistic presupposition!
"If we attempt to attribute an objective meaning to the quantum state of a single system, curious paradoxes appear: quantum effects mimic not only instantaneous action-at-a-distance but also, as seen here, influence of future actions on past events, even after these events have been irrevocably recorded." Asher Peres, Delayed choice for entanglement swapping. J. Mod. Opt. 47, 139-143 (2000).
You can see a more complete explanation of the startling results of the experiment at the 9:11 minute mark of the following video
Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment Explained - 2014 video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6HLjpj4Nt4
Thus Graham2, no matter how bizarre you may find it to be, Dr. Dembski's thesis is very plausible given our current state of knowledge about quantum mechanics. Of related note, physicists are about to close last 'loop hole' for quantum entanglement,,, they are about to close the setting independence, i.e. 'free will', loop hole for quantum entanglement:
Is Quantum Entanglement Real? - David Kaiser - Nov. 14, 2014 Excerpt: Even with these great successes, work remains to be done. Every experimental test of entanglement has been subject to one or more loopholes, which hold out the possibility, however slim, that some alternative theory, distinct from quantum theory and more in line with Einstein’s intuitions, may still be salvageable. For example, one potential loophole — addressed by Dr. Aspect’s experiment — was that the measurement device itself was somehow transmitting information about one particle to the other particle, which would explain the coordination between them. The most stubborn remaining loophole is known as “setting independence.” Dr. Zeilinger and I, working with several colleagues — including the physicists Alan H. Guth, Andrew S. Friedman and Jason Gallicchio — aim to close this loophole, a project that several of us described in an article in Physical Review Letters. HERE’S the problem. In any test of entanglement, the researcher must select the settings on each of the detectors of the experimental apparatus (choosing to measure, for example, a particle’s spin along one direction or another). The setting-independence loophole suggests that, though the researcher appears to be free to select any setting for the detectors, it is possible that he is not completely free: Some unnoticed causal mechanism in the past may have fixed the detectors’ settings in advance, or nudged the likelihood that one setting would be chosen over another. Bizarre as it may sound, even a minuscule amount of such coordination of the detectors’ settings would enable certain alternative theories to mimic the famous predictions from quantum theory. In such a case, entanglement would be merely a chimera. How to close this loophole? Well, obviously, we aren’t going to try to prove that humans have free will. But we can try something else. In our proposed experiment, the detector setting that is selected (say, measuring a particle’s spin along this direction rather than that one) would be determined not by us — but by an observed property of some of the oldest light in the universe (say, whether light from distant quasars arrives at Earth at an even- or odd-numbered microsecond). These sources of light are so far away from us and from one another that they would not have been able to receive a single light signal from one another, or from the position of the Earth, before the moment, billions of years ago, when they emitted the light that we detect here on Earth today. That is, we would guarantee that any strange “nudging” or conspiracy among the detector settings — if it does exist — would have to have occurred all the way back at the Hot Big Bang itself, nearly 14 billion years ago. If, as we expect, the usual predictions from quantum theory are borne out in this experiment, we will have constrained various alternative theories as much as physically possible in our universe. If not, that would point toward a profoundly new physics. Either way, the experiment promises to be exciting — a fitting way, we hope, to mark Bell’s paper’s 50th anniversary. - David Kaiser is a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he teaches physics and the history of science. His latest book is “How the Hippies Saved Physics: Science, Counterculture, and the Quantum Revival.” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/opinion/sunday/is-quantum-entanglement-real.html?_r=1
My only question right now is not if they will close the free will loop hole but, “By how many standard deviations will they close it?”,,, These guys don’t mess around, they closed the last loophole by 70 standard deviations, and verified Leggett’s inequality by 120 standard deviations! Verse and Music:
Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. The Broken Beautiful - Ellie Holcomb http://myktis.com/songs/broken-beautiful/
bornagain77
November 28, 2014
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I asked CharlieM: "And since you describe bacterial flagella as a “physical system”, maybe you’d like to describe how, when, and where the alleged non-physical designer-creator designed and created physical bacterial flagella?" Querius responded: "This is not known any more than the magical mechanistic origin of life on earth, the origin of the earth, or the origin of the big bang." Then why do you IDers believe and claim that 'God-did-it' as described in the biblical story of Genesis? "What you don’t understand is that ID doesn’t take a position on the who or how. All that ID advocates is that if something seems designed, study it as if it were." Isn't it way past time for you IDers to be honest? You know damn well that all of you "take a position on the who or and how". "Unfortunately, die-hard Darwinists who insist against all experience and observation that the profoundly complex intricacies of life are random, mindless, and purposeless, and that anything without an obvious utility must by definition be junk, are deleterious to scientific progress." Irrelevant and incorrect rant noted. Querius, please describe in detail how the study of bacteria and/or their flagella (and/or any other life form) would change for the better if it were assumed/believed by the scientists doing the studying that bacteria and/or their flagella (and/or any other life form) were/are designed-created by the biblical god.Pachyaena
November 28, 2014
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Graham2:
I believe Dembskis End of Christianity ‘solves’ (mangles?) the problem by proposing that the effects of the Fall go back in time, or something.
He's actually trying to solve a different problem: Why was there suffering and death before the Fall? The Atonement is even harder to explain, in my opinion.
This is what religion does to the brain. Are you sure you haven’t some pathology left over from your time in the wilderness ?
There appears to have been no permanent damage. :-) My experience as an evangelical Christian is actually helpful in discussions like these, because I seem to understand my opponents' mindset much better than they typically understand mine. I had an interesting exchange at TSZ with Flint, who likened religion to an addiction: Flint:
I personally wonder if it’s any more possible to kick the smoking habit than to kick religious indoctrination. I speak as someone who smoked for over 30 years, then quit cold. I haven’t touched a cigarette for nearly 15 years, and I crave one every day, all day long. I don’t think this ever goes away. And like someone raised into a relgious faith from birth, I could relapse at any time. Hell, I smoke in my dreams!
keiths:
Flint, That’s an interesting thought. Most of the deconverts I know, including myself, tapered off religion gradually and never relapsed. Maybe people who quit cold turkey, or have a “road from Damascus” experience, are more likely to relapse. I wonder if anyone has investigated that.
There's also this post at Jerry Coyne's place in which an ex-Christian describes how addicting it is to be "drunk in the Spirit".keith s
November 28, 2014
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I believe Dembskis End of Christianity 'solves' (mangles?) the problem by proposing that the effects of the Fall go back in time, or something. This is what religion does to the brain. Are you sure you haven't some pathology left over from your time in the wilderness ?Graham2
November 28, 2014
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Querius @ 164
Let’s say you find a piece of obsidian with several conchoidal fractures. How would you determine intelligent design?
An IDer is asking me to detect design despite having CSI,dFSCI, FSCI/O in his design detection toolkit. Here goes : Obsidian is byproduct of cooling of Felsic volcano lava which means obsidian is rich in silica. Silica makes it brittle and when brittle things with layered silica breaks, you get conchoidal fractures.If the fracture point is away from the conchoidal circle, then the conhoid is a limacon, if the point is on the circumference of circle you get cardoid. If the limacon has a inner loop, you get a trisectrix. There is no ID here, only the structure of layered silica guides the conchoid.Me_Think
November 28, 2014
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Graham2:
On the question of parsimony, there is a huge gap in understanding here (between the pious & the heathens that is): the former don’t regard an invisible friend in the sky as particularly unlikely. I regard a disembodied intelligence floating around our heads as stupendously unlikely, but the pious just don’t see it that way, the supernatural generally (god, mind, soul, angels, etc, etc, etc) are all in a days work.
It's interesting, isn't it? I was the same way back in my Christian childhood. I just took the existence of God for granted, never realizing what a stupendous claim it was. Most believers make the mistake of being satisfied as long as their religion provides answers to the Big Questions. They don't check to see if those answers are the best answers, and often they don't even check to see if the answers make sense. A superficial plausibility is all that they require. Case in point: the Christian doctrine of the Atonement. It's a bizarre and indefensible doctrine on many levels, but it has a superficial plausibility: I'm guilty, someone has to be punished, Christ took the punishment for me, thank you Jesus! How many Christians actually think about it and ask the obvious questions? I know Vincent has, but few of the other Christians I know have ever really thought about it (until I bring it up, that is). :-)keith s
November 27, 2014
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Keith S: On the question of parsimony, there is a huge gap in understanding here (between the pious & the heathens that is): the former don't regard an invisible friend in the sky as particularly unlikely. I regard a disembodied intelligence floating around our heads as stupendously unlikely, but the pious just don't see it that way, the supernatural generally (god, mind, soul, angels, etc, etc, etc) are all in a days work. It took me a while to grasp this.Graham2
November 27, 2014
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Dionisio:
Gary S. Gaulin @819 I don’t have time to squander it on senseless discussions with folks who get upset when someone asks them simple questions. Why did you turn to name calling and personal attacks, as you did in this thread and in the ‘third way’ thread? Can’t you just stick to the discussed subject? Is it because you don’t like discussions outside your comfort zone? One who has strong arguments can be magnanimous to others. But if we lack strong arguments, we should humbly admit it. Or ask for additional clarification if the questions are not understood well. The only positive thing out of this could be that the discerning onlookers/lurkers can read what was written and arrive at their own conclusions. I wish the best to you.
Thanks for wishing the best. But the problem is that I already had enough years of the head games. It's also a way for a system that had better be as scientifically precise as I have to remain complacent. It's like I just explained in this reply, a matter where greater academia is out of the loop in regards to making science accessible to more people: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-impossibility-of-replicating-the-cell-a-problem-for-naturalism/#comment-532919 I welcome the challenges that test the theory. But it is unrealistic to ask vague questions that would very seriosly turn out to be four years of free time to fully cover. Academic teachers already teach how a RAM and other things work, and where you need help with that then at least say so. Asking me to start from the beginning on all that this theory covers is way more information than you can imagine. For me, it was a scary amount to look forward to. I'm sorry where I may seem to have seemed to have overreacted. I had to make sure that you know this is a Dinosaur Train preschool on up thing, where it very much helps for you to ask the right questions. Otherwise, your posting of papers that even I find interesting become associated with other ridiculous demands I have received that in turn lead to half a billion dollars worth of lab work from me. It's possible you were expecting theory that can be covered in a few paragraphs, but in this case there is a computer model to experiment on your own to gain experience with so you know what intelligence looks like when it's there and when it's not the dumb flat-lines of unintelligent random behavior. I can only wish I could make it all that easy for you.Gary S. Gaulin
November 27, 2014
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We describe them in such a way because that is what they are...... If it functions exactly as a stator, then it is a stator! No need to confuse the issue.. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/StatorAndre
November 27, 2014
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Pachyaena @ 163 wondered:
And since you describe bacterial flagella as a “physical system”, maybe you’d like to describe how, when, and where the alleged non-physical designer-creator designed and created physical bacterial flagella?
This is not known any more than the magical mechanistic origin of life on earth, the origin of the earth, or the origin of the big bang. What you don't understand is that ID doesn't take a position on the who or how. All that ID advocates is that if something seems designed, study it as if it were. Unfortunately, die-hard Darwinists who insist against all experience and observation that the profoundly complex intricacies of life are random, mindless, and purposeless, and that anything without an obvious utility must by definition be junk, are deleterious to scientific progress. -QQuerius
November 27, 2014
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keith s @ 157 . . . Orgel's First Rule
"Whenever a spontaneous process is too slow or too inefficient a protein will evolve to speed it up or make it more efficient."
One wonders what propels this magical ability. Dark energy? Intelligence? Personification? Wishful thinking? Orgel's Second Rule
"Evolution is cleverer than you are."
Absolutely has to be so! As everyone suspects, software at Microsoft, Adobe, Citrix Systems, and most other large software corporations have now laid off their programmers in favor of Evolutionary Code Generation (ECG). Computers are able to generate billions of iterations of random code mutations, the best of which are released as patches to be tested by millions of users. Leslie Orgel was a genius who was almost as smart as evolution. -QQuerius
November 27, 2014
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Me_Think @155 made the unsupported assertion:
ID falters at design detection stage.
Really? Could you give an example? Let's say you find a piece of obsidian with several conchoidal fractures. How would you determine intelligent design? -QQuerius
November 27, 2014
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CharlieM said: "I haven’t described life forms in a mechanical way. I have described the mechanical aspect of the component of an organism. In a similar way I could describe the mechanics involved in someone landing a punch without going into an details about their motives, the history behind the event, etc. What do you see that is wrong with describing the mechanics of a physical system?" CharlieM, this will likely shock you but I am not as gullible or stupid as you obviously think I am, and you're being dishonest by saying this: "I haven’t described life forms in a mechanical way." Bacteria, including the ones with flagella, are life forms. Describing a component/components of life forms as "...a motor with a stator and rotor, a clutch, a drive shaft connected to a propellor via a universal joint" is describing life forms and their components in a mechanistic/mechanical way. Yes, I notice that you like to change words, and I didn't say anything about motives, history behind the event, etc. My question, again, is: "why is that you IDers describe life forms in such mechanistic ways while also claiming that intelligent design is not mechanistic and that the ‘ID inference’ is not a ‘mechanistic theory’?" I'd appreciate an honest and non-diversionary answer (even though I already know the real answer). You asked: "What do you see that is wrong with describing the mechanics of a physical system?" I don't necessarily see anything wrong with describing the "mechanics" of a "physical system" as being mechanistic or mechanical (you left out those last five words) if it can legitimately be described that way, but I see a lot wrong with IDers conveniently and contradictorily going back and forth between describing life forms and/or their components in a very mechanistic-mechanical way while also claiming that intelligent design is not mechanistic-mechanical and that the ID inference, hypothesis, theory, or whatever you call it is not a mechanistic-mechanical inference, hypothesis, theory, or whatever you call it. Make up your minds and stop playing dishonest, contradictory games. And since you describe bacterial flagella as a "physical system", maybe you'd like to describe how, when, and where the alleged non-physical designer-creator designed and created physical bacterial flagella? P.S. Landing a punch is not a "component" of someone, at least not in the same sense that a flagellum is a "component" of a bacterium.Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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Vishnu #126,
The UFC [uncaused first cause] idea is more philosophically parsimonious.
Sure, but why assume that the UFC is godlike?keith s
November 27, 2014
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keiths:
I keep offering free advice to IDers that they never accept. I tell them “if you think you’ve found a whiz-bang argument against your opponent’s position, stop for a minute and ask yourself a simple question: Could this argument be used against me?”
mikeenders #111:
If that even were so why would/should IDers abandon it if it shows ID to be equally rational -especially when its the position of said opponents that ID is less rational?
If the original argument is intended to show that naturalism is implausible, but can be turned around and applied equally well to ID, then the IDer is in the uncomfortable position of denying both naturalism and ID. Hence my question to Barry in #41:
Do you think that naturalism and theism are both false, since neither can supply the “steenkin’ details” you require?
keith s
November 27, 2014
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Collin #110:
ID theorists are attempting to work out the processes, tests, and theories that we would use to decide when an artifact of unknown origin was designed, regardless of who the designer was or how he did the design. Let me give an example: Let’s say on Mars we discover a tablet with a bunch of unknown scripts/characters of the same font carved into it. In order to know if it were designed or a natural event, I don’t think we need to identify the writer or explain how he came about, or explain how their language evolved over time or even explain what the message is to make the conclusion that it was designed.
I agree. In that scenario we would note a) the similarity with human writing, which is a designed phenomenon, and b) the absence of unintelligent natural processes capable of plausibly explaining the phenomenon. Under the circumstances, design would be the best explanation.
Same thing with life, imo.
Definitely not. Terrestrial life doesn't have the characteristics of a designed phenomenon (which is what my "Bomb" argument capitalizes on), and there is a plausible explanation in terms of unintelligent natural processes. Hence my conclusion that unguided evolution is literally trillions of times better than ID at explaining the evidence. Relating this back to Vincent's OP, the problem is that Vincent is applying a double standard. He is arguing that unless naturalists can supply detailed naturalistic explanations of everything, we should assume design by default. But why not do the opposite? Why not assume naturalism by default -- it is far more parsimonious, after all -- and then accept design only if IDers can provide detailed, step-by-step explanation of how biological systems were designed? IDers would object that the latter is unfair, and I would agree. But if the latter is unfair, then so is the former. Vincent is being unfair by demanding naturalistic explanations of everything before agreeing to accept naturalism. Science is a long way off from being able to explain everything. In the meantime, we should accept the best available explanation, even if it is incomplete. And since unguided evolution is trillions of times better as an explanation versus ID, any rational person will choose it over ID.keith s
November 27, 2014
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ZAC says Even if the neural net is a robot that interacts with the world algorithmically, its decision-making can be non-computable. I say, you make this too easy Zac from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network quote: For example, a neural network for handwriting recognition is defined by a set of input neurons which may be activated by the pixels of an input image. After being weighted and transformed by a function....... (determined by the network's designer)..........., the activations of these neurons are then passed on to other neurons. This process is repeated until finally, an output neuron is activated. This determines which character was read. end quote: So an artificial neural network is an elaborate process to implement a function determined by the network's designer. Is that the sort of straw you are reduced to grasping at? peacefifthmonarchyman
November 27, 2014
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Andre:
Gary
But with so much still unknown it’s too early to show even half of what goes on inside a cell. It could easily take hundreds of years to only almost get right.
True but I hold that we will be able to reverse engineer the process, with biomimetics we are benefiting from our efforts…. But this will only become better when we drop the “chance” did it attitude and study nature in more detail on how it works. http://www.bloomberg.com/slide.....tml#slide1
At first it seemed like mimicking biology would be a little help, but a culture changing way of thinking that encourages looking for answers in how biology works would accelerate scientific progress in novel ways. For example the theory I'm defending is able to include artists who are helping to evidence things like "Movement is Happiness" as is expected from a cognitive model that has a hedonic system controlling motor/muscle actions from a sensory addressed memory. An academic scientist is perhaps the last person to figure out how to test hypotheses like this. Yet others don't even need a science paper full of science jargon to intuitively know that some hypotheses are true. Those who are expecting ID theory to conform to the "publish or perish" methodology are the ones out of the science loop, still waiting for something that they long ago missed. A Discovery Institute originated IDea led to things like ID Labs and Grid Cell Network models at Planet Source Code, which ultimately have increasing scientific impact that cannot be measured by how many academic citations the IDeas received. It's possible you are talking about the same kind of thing, where what matters includes making science accessible to those who not normally be part of the pioneering action. Or at least biomimetics seems to have the potential for the same sort of benefit to science.Gary S. Gaulin
November 27, 2014
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Quest, Have you heard of Orgel's Second Rule? PS Yes, that Orgel.keith s
November 27, 2014
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What I can’t comprehend about scientists’ inability to replicate the “simplest” of cells is that evolutionists believe that that dumb luck is smarter than the smartest of scientists in the field
It's not plain dumb luck. It is dumb luck + NS + trillions of trails in billions of cells + years of time. You know, if a process has even a slight probability, it will happen. I am sure you know the math behind it so I won't bore you with details.Me_Think
November 27, 2014
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CharlieM @ 153
human design and creativity begins with the thinking mind prior to a tangible product. Why concern yourself with the builder? As a general rule builders follow the plans of the architect.
ID falters at design detection stage. Any further, it disintegrates. That's the reason there is so much resistant to the question of designer(s). Even to know if there is a single or multiple designers you need to know about the designer.Me_Think
November 27, 2014
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What I can't comprehend about scientists' inability to replicate the "simplest" of cells is that evolutionists believe that that dumb luck is smarter than the smartest of scientists in the field, who are working on RE-CREATING LIFE... They are trying to replicate, what according to them dumb luck "created first"... the funniest part it that is IF someone does re-create life, the Nobel Prize will go to him for re-creating something that dumb luck did... Is that even fair to dumb luck that people get Nobel Prizes for discovering something that dumb luck did first...? I mean these people get recognition for discovering something that according to them dumb luck created... Can anyone imagine a ceremony of The Nobel Prize winner Jerry Coyne: "...Congratulation professor Coyne on your accomplishment of DISCOVERING (what the dumb luck did in the first place) the new mechanism of evolution called now Coyne Quantum Evolution... Congratulation again and keep up the good work....Quest
November 27, 2014
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Zachriel, human design and creativity begins with the thinking mind prior to a tangible product. Why concern yourself with the builder? As a general rule builders follow the plans of the architect.CharlieM
November 27, 2014
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logically_speaking @ 129
You didn’t answer the question to why you changed the word painter to created.
Did I change painter to creator? I said Yes, because not everyone can be a painter. You need to teach and guide a child before he can become a painter , or ID has to create a preordained painter. I said painter has to be taught by someone or ID has to create the painter. I didn't change 'Painter' to 'Creator'.
You claim that you need to teach a child before they can paint. But why can’t a painting be created by natural forces? How much information needs to be imparted specifically for the child to become a painter? Can you please show your math?
If you claim paintings are created by natural forces, it is you who needs to explain. I am curious why you think a manifestation of human creativity has to be explained by natural forces ?
Was this child the original painter in the original question?
How do I know ? It's your question. You are entitled to think whatever you want.For me it doesn't matter whether that child is painter in original question or not. Now I can imagine why metaphysics, or philosophy or whatever you call this discussion, is so exciting!Me_Think
November 27, 2014
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Zachriel, I haven't proposed any designer for the flagellum. I merely commented on the design.CharlieM
November 27, 2014
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