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On the Magical Thinking Inherent in the New Atheism

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Our atheist friends delight in preening over their rejection of the “irrational” and “magic.”  Not so writes David Bentley Hart:

All of which is to say (to return to where I began) that it is absurd to think that one can profess atheism in any meaningful way without thereby assenting to an entire philosophy of being, however inchoate one’s sense of it may be. The philosophical naturalist’s view of reality is not one that merely fails to find some particular object within the world that the theist imagines can be descried there; it is a very particular representation of the nature of things, entailing a vast range of purely metaphysical commitments.

Principally, it requires that one believe that the physical order, which both experience and reason say is an ensemble of ontological contingencies, can exist entirely of itself, without any absolute source of actuality. It requires also that one resign oneself to an ultimate irrationalism: For the one reality that naturalism can never logically encompass is the very existence of nature (nature being, by definition, that which already exists); it is a philosophy, therefore, surrounded, permeated, and exceeded by a truth that is always already super naturam, and yet a philosophy that one cannot seriously entertain except by scrupulously refusing to recognize this.

It is the embrace of an infinite paradox: the universe understood as an “absolute contingency.” It may not amount to a metaphysics in the fullest sense, since strictly speaking it possesses no rational content—it is, after all, a belief that all things rest upon something like an original moment of magic—but it is certainly far more than the mere absence of faith.

Comments
Dean_from_Ohio, I think you missed the point of my comment. That's OK. Anyway, there's no evideence whatsoever the Book of Revelation is true, and very good evidence that is it is a crock of balony. But that's neither here nor there. Humans write all kinds of wacky stuff. Because they are afaid of death. And so are you. I can tell ya this, Kimosabe, you will die. 100% guaranteed. And so will everyone else reading this. Love, Death.mike1962
August 23, 2017
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EugeneS @92:
It is amusing to see how they twist definitions. And then they label their incoherent eclectic philosophy ‘science’. In honesty, though, they don’t care about science in the least. Russian historian Lev Gumilyov: “Contemporary intellectuals are a special spiritual sect. […] Remarkably, they know nothing, they can’t make a thing with their own hands, but they judge about everything without tolerance to differing points of view”.
Spot-on. Thanks.Dionisio
August 23, 2017
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EugeneS @92: Very interesting quote. Thanks for sharing it here.Dionisio
August 23, 2017
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@WJM
Oh, you’re mistaking my intention here. I’m not trying to educate you, I’m using you as an example of the folly of atheist thinking. You’re incapable of understanding my point.
This is an odd criticism from someone who is apparently incapable of noticing he is equivocating. That which remains is not positively justified, causing it to rise above all others. What remains among others is that which has withstood criticism. This includes what kind of criticism should be applied, and even the entire idea that criticism is the best means by which knowledge grows. Or that knowledge even genuinely grows at all. I'm a fallibilist about fallibilism. For example, can you give me an example of a supposed basic belief that is used to justify other non-basic beliefs?critical rationalist
August 22, 2017
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LT:
Is there an astrophysicist in the house? White courtesy phone. Astrophysicist, white courtesy phone.
That was merely a for-instance, though I suppose I should have said as much. Feel free to insert a hypothesis of your own choosing.LocalMinimum
August 22, 2017
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Nobody knows what 96% of the universe consists of...that that's why it's called dark energy and dark matter indicating that physicists and cosmologists like Krauss are in pitch darkness... So it is beyond weird to claim that the the universe came from nothing if the great majority of it is totally unknown.. Krauss and others on the same boat keep forgetting that if the universe had a beginning, which it looks like it did, it had an extremely low entropy...This means that that the universe started out highly organized...How could this be? What materialists like Krauss would hope for is the universe that started out with high entropy (high disorder) that gradually evolved into low entropy, just like Darwinists hope to mislead people into believing that's how life evolved on the earth despite the fact that this myth violates the second law of thermodynamics... Well, there is only one explanation for the highly organised universe just as there is only one explanation for highly organized life on the earth, which Krauss the like refuse to acknowledge... Here is Mr. Positive --Sean Caroll pretending that there is no problem with the universe staring out with extremely low entropy... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGs4C60FR68J-Mac
August 22, 2017
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Mike 1962 @11, Well said. It is amusing to see how they twist definitions. And then they label their incoherent eclectic philosophy 'science'. In honesty, though, they don't care about science in the least. Russian historian Lev Gumilyov: "Contemporary intellectuals are a special spiritual sect. [...] Remarkably, they know nothing, they can't make a thing with their own hands, but they judge about everything without tolerance to differing points of view".EugeneS
August 22, 2017
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mike1962 - My apologies for not knowing that you were a physicist. I assume, then, that you're more aware of the issues about what "nothing" is than I am. But is is this semantics? My understanding is that the vacuum of space is usually considered 'nothing', but quantum fluctuations mean that particles continuously appear & disappear. Hence, what we usually think of as "nothing" does contain something.Bob O'H
August 22, 2017
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Bob O'H Something that has properties is, well, not nothing, it's something. You get that, right? P.S. Krauss doesn't know anything about quantum physics that I don't. Believe me. But that doesn't really matter for our purposes here, does it? (P.S.S. I have a prettier face, if that helps.) He's a smart guy. Who likes to be an agitator. But the agitator part is not physics. It's just jackassery. You get the difference, right?mike1962
August 22, 2017
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Lars @ 79 - I'm guessing Mung was referring to octarine. mike1962 @ 88 - The concept of 'nothing' gets weird at the quantum level (no surprise, really: everything gets weird at the quantum level): if I understand correctly, Hawking radiation is the result of "nothing" (quantum fluctuations create particle - anti-particle pairs, one of which falls into a black hole). Now it may well be that Krauss is a retard, but it could also be that he knows a lot more about physics that you (or indeed me).Bob O'H
August 22, 2017
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Lawrence Krauss physicist and cosmologist the author of the world acclaimed book “A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing” claims that even nothing is something…
Yeah, misleading title. According to Krauss, "Quantum foam" has properties. Something that has properties is not "nothing." What a retard. Just another atheist evading the reality of Death. But Death awaits. It always does. Love, Deathmike1962
August 21, 2017
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"what about the Big Bang, where nature as we know it emerged from pregnant “nothing”? Sir Fred Hoyle was an English astronomer who formulated the theory of stellar nucleosynthesis. He also held controversial stances on other scientific matters—in particular his rejection of the "Big Bang" theory, a term coined by him on BBC radio... I wonder what would happened if we found out one day that Darwin never coined or used the word evolution? "Is there an astrophysicist in the house? White courtesy phone. Astrophysicist, white courtesy phone." Lawrence Krauss physicist and cosmologist the author of the world acclaimed book "A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing" claims that even nothing is something... Comments withheld for obvious reasons...J-Mac
August 21, 2017
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Death. I'm coming for you. Yeah you. Period. Theists do what they do because of it. Atheists do what they do because of it. But make no mistake. You're living on borrowed time. Love, Deathmike1962
August 21, 2017
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Axel @ 80. That helps, thank you. :)Mung
August 21, 2017
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William @83, That, my friend, is a whole lotta jumble you just spilled. Consider stepping away and thinking things over things for a bit. Maybe start with the definition of 'compatible.' And again, if you could enlighten the automatons on the consistency of atheism and belief in magic, that would be peachy. * * * * Ah, let me just try -- try - to show you how off-the-rails you are. So, I say this:
I do not think that belief in magic by definition means one has some sort of belief in God.
The shorter version of this is that belief in magic does not by definition make one theist. Here's what you think I just said:
If one doesn’t have to believe in God in order to believe in magic, then, logically speaking, atheism and magic are compatible beliefs.
To your mind, I said that one doesn't have to believe in God to believe in magic. This is, of course, not what my statement says, and it is not what my statement implies. You've reversed things: just look at which term comes first, and which second, and what connects them. Then, William, you argue for the compatibility of atheism and magic. Now, even in your butchering of the plain sense of my statement, atheism and magic cannot be said to be compatible. Your butchered statement essentially says that belief in magic is neutral with respect to atheism. Neutrality is neither compatibility nor incompatibility. From reading comprehension to reasoning, you're illustrating a version of Woody Allen's joke from Annie Hall:
Two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort and one of 'em says, "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible." The other one says, "Yeah, I know, and such small portions."
Every comment you make is like this. Bad logic, twisted reading, and a nasty tone that make me want to wash my eyeballs after seeing your third-rate philosophical detritus.LarTanner
August 21, 2017
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LT: 2. Incorrect. Atheism doesn't make any such claim. I ask you to direct me to any definition or expanded definition of atheism that is widely held as authoritative that makes this claim or even implies it. 3. Doesn't follow from from the previous "logic". Why can't sorcerers exist without a god? 3.1 "Super-being" is not the same thing as the "God" which Hart argues for. You seem to have a very muddled-up mind when it comes to concepts that are apparently well outside of your wheelhouse. In your mind, apparently, Harry Potter, witches, "super-beings" and God, telekinesis, levitation, etc. are all mashed up in one definitional category and require each other in order to exist at all. However, apparently some degree of light has broken into that dark vault of a brain after all when you say:
Finally, no, I do not think that belief in magic by definition means one has some sort of belief in God. As 3.2 indicates, once you believe in magic you might as well believe in some sort of gods or God. After all, why stop only halfway to crazy-town?
You've just ditched your argument that "After all, magic is fully and obviously inconsistent with atheism" because you admit belief in god is not necessary to believe in magic - therefore, one can be an atheist and believe in magic. Just because it might be rare doesn't mean one belief is inconsistent with the other.
And again, what I am saying is that atheism and belief in magic are inconsistent. You might think that atheism and a belief in magic are compatible; perhaps you can now detail the specific reasoning behind this. It seems fairly ridiculous to me.
You already admitted they were compatible when you admitted
I do not think that belief in magic by definition means one has some sort of belief in God.
If one doesn't have to believe in God in order to believe in magic, then, logically speaking, atheism and magic are compatible beliefs. Oh you poor, pitiful biological automaton. Are you capable of admitting your blatant error in reasoning?William J Murray
August 21, 2017
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William --
I would really like to know how you compute that because atheists reject belief in god that magic is “inconsistent with atheism”.
Think of it this way: (1) As I say in comment 65, "magic involves being able to sidestep natural causation." (2) Atheism, which has no gods, recognizes no beings or objects that cause physical events to happen mysteriously. (2.1) For example, with a ball you can hit and break a bottle. This is natural causation and not magic. (2.2) If you were to utter a certain phrase and by this means break the bottle, that would be magic. (2.3) If you were to wave hands over a gemstone and by this means break the bottle, this also would be magic. (3.0) It is inconsistent to claim that real magicians or sorcerers exist while also asserting that belief in gods or God is factually wrong. (3.1) How can you say that some people use occult knowledge to manipulate nature while also rejecting the idea that a super-being exists which can do the same thing? (3.2) The assertion that occult knowledge exists is a step away from asserting that occult beings exist. And again, what I am saying is that atheism and belief in magic are inconsistent. You might think that atheism and a belief in magic are compatible; perhaps you can now detail the specific reasoning behind this. It seems fairly ridiculous to me. Finally, no, I do not think that belief in magic by definition means one has some sort of belief in God. As 3.2 indicates, once you believe in magic you might as well believe in some sort of gods or God. After all, why stop only halfway to crazy-town?LarTanner
August 21, 2017
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LT says:
If you think that I think that Hart “was saying atheists were explicit in their view of a magical moment” — well, then I must be communicating poorly, because I do not (repeat: not) think Hart was saying that.
Then your criticism of Hart is incoherent, as I've pointed out.
If you’re headed somewhere with your comments to me, then get there. Otherwise, I’ll simply maintain what I think is the essence of my first comment, which is —
I'm quite sure you will maintain what you think regardless of anything anyone here says. That's really not much of an ultimatum.
(2) A belief in magic is inconsistent with atheism, which is reasoned and reasonable rejection of faith in gods generally and God specifically.
I would really like to know how you compute that because atheists reject belief in god that magic is "inconsistent with atheism". Do you think that belief in magic by definition means one has some sort of belief in God? If so I'd like to see how you justify that view.William J Murray
August 21, 2017
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I couldn't help laughing at your slightly injured and querulous rejoinder, Mung : 'I like sci-fi.' It reminded me of an incident involving my exceptionally quick-witted brother-in-law, who has that enviable gift of being able to immediatley snap back at an insult with a devastating quip ; where most of us have that less than enviable 'l'esprit de l'escalier' : what we think - all too late, of course - we should have said, as we descend the stairs on our way out ! He was driving his mother and an old local lady past a grim-looking graveyard on the Isle of Mull. He remarked in a lugubrious, horrified tone :'Imagine being buried there...!' On hearing this, the old girl indignantly complained : 'My husband was buried there .... ! Without missing a beat, he he murmured in breathtakingly dissonant tones, as reverential as he could muster : 'Ah.. the peace...' Thought it might cheer you up, Mung, at the slight against sci-fi !Axel
August 21, 2017
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Comment 78 --
We know what causes magic, and none of those causes are inconsistent with atheism.
Please explain!LarTanner
August 21, 2017
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(1) Hart holds a fundamentally flawed understanding of atheism. Atheists hold a fundamentally flawed understanding of atheism. (2) A belief in magic is inconsistent with atheism, which is reasoned and reasonable rejection of faith in gods generally and God specifically. This is blatantly and hilariously false. We know what causes magic, and none of those causes are inconsistent with atheism.Mung
August 21, 2017
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LarTanner, ”A belief in magic is inconsistent with atheism, which is reasoned and reasonable rejection of faith in gods generally and God specifically.” Invoking mantras proves nothing. It is kind of like invoking a magic spell. How ironic.john_a_designer
August 21, 2017
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William J. Murray at 74 -- I have no patience for this. If you think that I think that Hart "was saying atheists were explicit in their view of a magical moment" -- well, then I must be communicating poorly, because I do not (repeat: not) think Hart was saying that. If you're headed somewhere with your comments to me, then get there. Otherwise, I'll simply maintain what I think is the essence of my first comment, which is -- (1) Hart holds a fundamentally flawed understanding of atheism. (2) A belief in magic is inconsistent with atheism, which is reasoned and reasonable rejection of faith in gods generally and God specifically.LarTanner
August 21, 2017
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Sev @ 62 "The fact that science has yet to discover and describe naturalistic causes for these phenomena does not mean that we never will..." Faith is the substance of things hoped for....When it's all said and done, you and other materialists are just as faith based as any religion but with less justification.Florabama
August 21, 2017
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LarTanner said:
Yes, I get that. It’s the precise point I addressed.
No, it isn't. The "point" you addressed was as if Hart was saying atheists were explicit in their view of a magical moment, like when you said:
That most atheists do not share this understanding is of little consequence to Hart...
..and when you referred to Hart's comment about this magical point a "strawman"
Most atheists, to my knowledge, explicitly and thoughtfully believe that whatever all things “rest upon,” it is not (repeat: not) magical, no matter how like magic it might seem. Hart’s “something like” betrays his strawman.
It's not a "straw man", LT, if you understand that Hart is not claiming atheists consciously or explicitly view that moment as "magic".
Consider magic one of those ramifications of atheistic belief. Plus, I said that magic was “inconsistent with atheism,” not that atheism made claims about it.
Wow. Quote-mining yourself? You said:
After all, magic is fully and obviously inconsistent with atheism.
But, LT, magic is not even "inconsistent with atheism" much less "fully and obviously inconsistent with atheism" if atheism makes no claims about it - which it doesn't. You're the one "both wrong on fundamentals and looking foolish in the process". But, it's not your fault - that's just the way happenstance interactions of chemistry make you behave. Right?William J Murray
August 21, 2017
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Re. Comment #70 -
what about the Big Bang, where nature as we know it emerged from pregnant “nothing”?
Is there an astrophysicist in the house? White courtesy phone. Astrophysicist, white courtesy phone.LarTanner
August 21, 2017
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William J Murray-
Hart’s comments about atheistic beliefs resting on a moment of magic is not a comment about what he thinks atheists explicitly think, but rather what the ramification of their belief entails even though they would deny it.
Yes, I get that. It's the precise point I addressed.
atheism doesn’t make any claims one way or another about magic
Consider magic one of those ramifications of atheistic belief. Plus, I said that magic was "inconsistent with atheism," not that atheism made claims about it.
I know of an atheist that fully believes in what you would call supernatural and afterlife magic and realms but doesn’t believe in God.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
you biological automatons are so pitifully inept at grappling with conceptual matters. It’s almost like you all suffer from Aspergers.I wonder if you are expressing frustration or think you are making a zinger.
I suppose the important thing is that you feel pretty good about your own grasp of conceptual matters.LarTanner
August 21, 2017
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LarTanner:
In other words, a belief in magic is a belief that the laws of nature can suddenly and arbitrarily be violated.
So, what about the Big Bang, where nature as we know it emerged from pregnant "nothing"? Obviously, it's a sudden and arbitrary violation of "natural law" as we commonly present it. Would you ascribe that to some higher order of natural law? But, once you've allowed a higher order of natural law beyond the observable, how can you constrain it? It's beyond empiricism, so you can only (honestly) ask for non-contradiction. So, now you have a necessary realm from which "natural law" can be suddenly and arbitrarily violated with respect to our ability to observe it. In the end, magic is only functionally appropriate as a slur against willful contradiction. I find it fair to bring it against materialism that places human observation as the pivot about which that which can exist, must exist. It's the ignorance attributed to the crudest forms of geocentrism, updated and generalized.LocalMinimum
August 21, 2017
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@ #4 I said "honest questions deserve honest answers." I then gave a list of questions for a naturalist/ materialist to honestly answer. Two of our regular atheist interlocutors gave it a stab, rvb8 @ #18 and Seversky @ #62. However, neither of them really answered the questions. Instead they responded by bashing theism or shrugging their shoulders and saying “I don’t know”. Are there naturalistic answers to any of these questions? Is there anyone out there that can answer them from a naturalistic perspective? My point is that the naturalist/materialist argue that their worldview is based on science. Are these questions scientific questions or are they just philosophical ones? If they are scientific ones shouldn’t there be irrefutable scientific answers? My point is that the naturalist/materialist argue that their worldview is based on science. Are these questions scientific questions or are they just philosophical ones? If they are scientific ones shouldn’t there be irrefutable scientific answers? Seversky appears to think that they are. But how does he know that?john_a_designer
August 21, 2017
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LarTanner, You have demonstrated a profound inability to understand the writing of Hart, and you logic is irrepairably flawed. Hart's comments about atheistic beliefs resting on a moment of magic is not a comment about what he thinks atheists explicitly think, but rather what the ramification of their belief entails even though they would deny it. Also, atheism doesn't make any claims one way or another about magic. I know of an atheist that fully believes in what you would call supernatural and afterlife magic and realms but doesn't believe in God. I believe you are confusing atheism with materialism. Good lord ... you biological automatons are so pitifully inept at grappling with conceptual matters. It's almost like you all suffer from Aspergers.William J Murray
August 21, 2017
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