Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Professor Larry Moran poses five questions for the ID movement

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In a recent post over at his Sandwalk blog, Professor Larry Moran has been attempting to set the cat among the pigeons, with a list of five issues which, he anticipates, will lead to bitter recriminations within the “big tent” of the Intelligent Design movement.

Professor Moran is shocked, shocked, that Intelligent Design advocates sometimes publicly disagree on certain issues, as illustrated by a recent series of posts (by Sal Cordova, Dr. Branko Kozulic and myself) on the neutral theory of evolution. He writes:

The reason why this is so remarkable is that it almost never happens under the creationist big tent. Different Intelligent Design Creationists have widely conflicting views ranging from Young Earth Creationism to Theistic Evolution Creationism but they always manage to cover up those conflicts and present a united front in attacking evolution….

So, here’s the situation. If the IDiots actually start understanding modern evolution then there will be consequences. Some of them realize the implications and they are not happy. Here’s a brief list of issues that are now on the table under the big tent.

1. Darwinism: If the Idiots have been misinformed about evolution, which they have, then who is responsible and why were they misled by so many of their leaders?

2. Social Darwinism: If evolutionary biologists really believe in Neutral Theory and random genetic drift then how can they be supporters of the evil consequences of nineteenth century Darwinism? What about all those posts where evolutionary biologists were compared to eugenicists, racists, and Nazis?

3. Common Descent: This is a biggy. If Sal Cordova and the evolutionary biologists are right about the sequence differences between humans and chimpanzees, then it must mean that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. There will be no room under the big tent for Young Earth Creationists.

4. Junk DNA: If Cordova is right then most of the stochastic substitutions in the human genome are neutral. This must mean that most of our genome is junk. Oops! That won’t sit well with many creationists.

5. Theistic Evolution: There’s only one group that’s more evil than materialistic scientists and that’s theistic evolutionists. They are traitors. But if the IDiots actually were to accept the fundamental concepts of evolution, as Sal Cordova and Vincent Torley seem to be doing, then where does that leave Theistic Evolution Creationism? This cold be embarrassing when you look at all the posts on Uncommon Descent where theistic evolutionists have been mercilessly attacked.

Before I continue, I’d just like to point out something: the recent lively exchange of views between Intelligent Design advocates who have been blogging on Uncommon Descent on the subject of the neutral theory of evolution, has been carried out in a polite and cordial fashion, without even a trace of the name-calling, sarcasm and vulgarity that one so often finds at Websites run by outspoken atheists. That should tell you something.

I’d now like to address Professor Moran’s five questions, in turn.

1. Darwinism

1. Darwinism: If the Idiots have been misinformed about evolution, which they have, then who is responsible and why were they misled by so many of their leaders?

Professor Moran is assuming here that Intelligent Design advocates are more misinformed than most people, regarding what modern biologists believe about evolution. On this point, I think he is mistaken: nearly everyone who isn’t a biologist shares the same set of misconceptions.

A typical layperson’s view of evolution: E = NS acting on RV

In a recent post titled, Both wrong (13 February 2014), Professor PZ Myers referred to the view that “evolution is primarily a consequence of natural selection” as “a factually incorrect assertion.” Quite a few of his regular readers were sorely perplexed by this statement, and wrote in to say so:

Okay, so what am i missing? (Apart from a formal education in the biological sciences.)

I know (a little) about random mutations, the founder effect, & genetic drift. Aren’t they what natural selection acts upon? If so, it looks to me as though evolution is primarily a consequence of natural selection. (Dick the Damned)

How is evolution NOT a result of natural selection? Isn’t that exactly what Darwin taught? I am completely surprised and confused now. (dalehusband)

*Meekly raises hand*

I was under the (evidently mistaken) impression that, in nature, evolution is primarily driven by natural selection? (Sven)

I’m waiting for PZ to explain hisself here, but if he doesn’t do so soon I’m going to have to do it myself… and nobody wants that. (ChasCPeterson)

If certain lay Intelligent Design advocates such as myself, have (like most laypeople) been misinformed as to what modern biologists believe about evolution, it certainly isn’t because they were misled by leading figures in the Intelligent Design movement.

Natural selection dominates media and Internet coverage of evolution

One significant reason for the widespread confusion among laypeople is the fact that science bloggers write a lot more frequently about natural selection than about genetic drift – a point which was astutely made by commenter John Harshman, who wrote:

Well, I’m a bit surprised at the comments. Apparently Larry Moran was right, and most people have no idea about the prevalence of neutral evolution. But I can see why. Who writes popular books on the glories of drift? All the cool stuff — flight, big sharp teeth, fancy ornaments, tool use, etc. — is selection. All the science blogs are full of bizarre adaptations, but seldom a word about the boring, pointless bulk of fixations. Junk DNA just isn’t as much fun, even for many biologists, which is why so many are trying to kill it off.

The most vocal leading scientists who popularize evolution are neo-Darwinians

The other main reason why laypeople (including myself) have been misled regarding what evolutionary biologists currently believe about evolution, is that a small but vocal minority of biologists continue to espouse the neo-Darwinian view. The following quote by Richard Dawkins is typical of those scientists who fall into this camp:

There is one particular property of living things, however, that I want to single out as explicable only by Darwinian selection. This property is the one that has been the recurring topic of this book: adaptive complexity. (The Blind Watchmaker, New York: W. W. Norton & Company, Inc., 1986, Chapter 11, “Doomed Rivals,” p. 288.)

In the book’s preface, Dawkins states that he wrote the book “to persuade the reader, not just that the Darwinian world-view happens to be true, but that it is the only known theory that could, in principle, solve the mystery of our existence.”

Dawkins is not the only vocal defender of natural selection. Here’s a short passage, taken from a post titled James Shapiro goes after natural selection again (twice) on HuffPo (22 August 2012) by evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne, in which he roundly declares that modern evolutionary biologists regard natural selection as “the only game in town” when it comes to explaining adaptations, and criticizes biologist James Shapiro for thinking otherwise:

How on earth do cytogenetics or molecular genetics alone explain the transformation of fish into tetrapods, deerlike animals into whales, or account for cryptic coloration, mimicry, and adaptive behaviors? They can’t, for there has to be some process that winnows out the variation that arises. That process is natural selection…

I wouldn’t go after Shapiro except that he spews this anti-evolutionary nonsense at HuffPo, and naive readers might get the impression that biologists are beginning to doubt that natural selection is important. Well, as far as evolutionary biologists regard adaptations, it is: natural selection is the only game in town.

Yes, we now know of a whole host of new mechanisms to generate genetic variation, including symbiosis and the ingestion of DNA from distantly related species. But to produce adaptation, something has to winnow out the wheat from the chaff: those variants that reduce reproduction from those that enhance it. And that’s natural selection. There is no alternative, and Shapiro, despite his endless series of “blogs,” has never suggested one.

How I gradually came to realize that evolutionary biologists aren’t neo-Darwinians anymore

Gradually, however, I came to realize that Coyne’s views were no longer typical of modern evolutionary biologists. I had previously written about the views of a few dissenting biologists back in 2012, in a post titled, Larry Morgan defends Paul Nelson! (December 11, 2012). But I still imagined them to be representing the views of a beleaguered minority of scientists in the field. It was only recently that I became aware that this “beleaguered minority” was actually a majority!

What prompted this startling realization was the publication of a couple of recent posts by prominent evolutionary biologists PZ Myers (The state of modern evolutionary theory may not be what you think it is, 14 February 2014) and Larry Moran (On the difference between Neutral Theory and random genetic drift, 15 February 2014). In his post, PZ Myers summed up the findings of science over the last few decades as follows:

First thing you have to know: the revolution is over. Neutral and nearly neutral theory won. The neutral theory states that most of the variation found in evolutionary lineages is a product of random genetic drift. Nearly neutral theory is an expansion of that idea that basically says that even slightly advantageous or deleterious mutations will escape selection — they’ll be overwhelmed by effects dependent on population size. This does not in any way imply that selection is unimportant, but only that most molecular differences will not be a product of adaptive, selective changes.

Professor Moran concurred:

What Neutral Theory tells us is that a huge number of mutations are neutral and there are far more neutral mutations fixed by random genetic drift that there are beneficial mutations fixed by natural selection. The conclusion is inescapable. Random genetic drift is, by far, the dominant mechanism of evolution.…

The revolution is over and strict Darwinism lost. We now know that random genetic drift is an important mechanism of evolution and there’s more to evolution than natural selection. Unfortunately, this blatantly obvious fact is not understood by the vast majority of people and teachers. There are even many scientists who don’t understand evolution.

There was more. Professors PZ Myers and Larry Moran also argued that a non-Darwinian mechanism could account for the origin of most complex structures in living things. In a post entitled, Complexity is not usually the product of selection (11 December 2012), PZ Myers forthrightly declared:

I think if selection were always the rule, then we’d never have evolved beyond prokaryotes — all that fancy stuff eukaryotes added just gets in the way of the one true business of evolution, reproduction…

The bottom line is that you cannot easily explain most increases in complexity with adaptationist rationales. You have to consider chance as far more important, and far more likely to produced elaborations…

Even in something as specific as the physiological function of a biochemical pathway, adaptation isn’t the complete answer, and evolution relies on neutral or nearly neutral precursor events to produce greater functional complexity.

Professor Larry Moran subsequently endorsed P.Z.Myers’ article, in a post of his own, entitled, On the Evolution of Complexity (11 December 2012), in which he wrote:

Can you go from some simple character to a more complex feature without invoking natural selection? Yes, you can. Complex features can evolve by nonadaptive means. Just think of our complex genome and read The Origins of Genome Architecture by Michael Lynch.

Want a more simple example? Read the latest post by PZ Myers: [αEP: Complexity is not usually the product of selection]1.

This is an important point. You can’t just assume, without question, that a complex trait must be an adaptation and must have arisen by natural selection. That applies to molecular complexes and also to complex behavior.

These posts, coupled with the two February 2014 posts by Professors Myers and Moran on the triumph of the neutral theory, made me decide that the time had come to stop going after neo-Darwinian evolution, as most biologists no longer accepted it anyway, and focus instead on the neutral theory of evolution. This is what I attempted to do in my first post on the neutral theory. My decision to focus on fixation rates turned out to be tactically unwise, and the factual errors that Professor Moran subsequently exposed in my post proved to be a valuable learning experience for me. But my intention – which was to shift the focus of attack away from neo-Darwinism and direct it at modern-day versions of evolution – was, I believe, quite right.

2. Social Darwinism

2. Social Darwinism: If evolutionary biologists really believe in Neutral Theory and random genetic drift then how can they be supporters of the evil consequences of nineteenth century Darwinism? What about all those posts where evolutionary biologists were compared to eugenicists, racists, and Nazis?

The Uncommon Descent posts on Social Darwinism highlighted the enormous harm wrought by three central ideas that were actively promulgated by nineteenth-century evolutionists: first, the denial of the human soul; second, the assertion that our every act (leaving aside random quantum fluctuations which cannot truly be called actions) is determined by circumstances beyond our control, which takes away our freedom of choice; and finally, the progressivist accounts of evolution that were widely propagated not only by Haeckel but also by Darwin himself, as I’ve documented in my post, Rewriting history: Can a Darwinist believe in the scala naturae? (Darwin did.) and Darwin, Kingsley, evolution and racism. (Good arguments for the existence of an immaterial human soul can be found here and here; see also here, here and here. For a refutation of arguments that the scientific evidence for determinism is so strong as to preclude the possibility of free will, see here and here; see also here, here and here.) The first two ideas debased people’s view of what it means to be human, causing many people to think of themselves as mere “meat machines” instead of individuals made in the image and likeness of God, their Creator; while the third idea lent a new legitimacy to scientific racism (which had first appeared back in the eighteenth century), as some races were thought to occupy a much higher place on the evolutionary ladder than others.

The first two ideas continue to poison people’s minds, and the neutral theory of evolution is just as imbued with them as neo-Darwinism is.

Professor Moran might point out that progressivist models of evolution are badly flawed, and that contemporary biologists unanimously reject racism. But he might do well to ponder Stephen Jay Gould’s dictum that human equality is a contingent fact of history. From a materialist standpoint, this is surely correct: were the Neandertals or Denisovans alive today, I doubt whether most evolutionary biologists would regard them as their moral equals, with the same rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as we currently enjoy.

3. Common Descent

3. Common Descent: This is a biggy. If Sal Cordova and the evolutionary biologists are right about the sequence differences between humans and chimpanzees, then it must mean that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. There will be no room under the big tent for Young Earth Creationists.

Hold on a second, Professor Moran! First of all, lumping Sal Cordova in with “evolutionary biologists” is a bit of a joke, as Sal is a committed young-earth creationist. Second, Sal Cordova is well aware of the genetic similarities and differences between humans and chimpanzees, and some time ago, he wrote a carefully worded post (which Moran reviewed), in which he drew a distinction between physical ancestors and what he called “conceptual ancestors,” and went on to argue that extensive physical similarities between two species of organisms did not mean that they were related. Third, Sal has recently written a post titled, Larry almost got it right, but he just can’t turn the corner (17 April 2014), in which he elucidates his views on the genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees, and on the neutral theory of evolution.

For my part, I have made no secret of my belief in the common descent of organisms. But if someone in the Intelligent Design movement thinks they can explain the genetic similarities and differences between humans and chimps without postulating a common ancestor for these two primates, then all I can say is: good luck to them. Why is that? Because in the ultimate scheme of things, I don’t see the question of whether we’re related to chimps as a very important one. Nothing really hangs on it, in terms of the way we live our lives. At the very most, the discovery might bring limited medical benefits, which Professor Jerry Coyne summarizes in a post titled, Of what value is evolutionary biology in medicine? (3 April 2009).

Far more important, however, than the historical question of whether we share a common ancestor with the chimp is the more fundamental philosophical question: are the genetic differences between humans and chimps at least partly the result of an act of intelligent design, or are they entirely caused by unguided processes? In a future post, I hope to outline my reasons for believing that intelligent design is the best explanation for some of the major differences between humans and other primates.

In short: the Intelligent Design “big tent” remains standing. In order to see why it’s still standing, Professor Moran just needs to get his philosophical priorities straight.

4. Junk DNA

4. Junk DNA: If Cordova is right then most of the stochastic substitutions in the human genome are neutral. This must mean that most of our genome is junk. Oops! That won’t sit well with many creationists.

Sal Cordova has already responded to Professor Moran’s argument in the post I mentioned above. I’d like to make a few comments of my own.

It appears to me that Professor Moran’s reasoning is faulty on two counts. First, the fact that “most of the stochastic substitutions in the human genome are neutral” doesn’t imply that the sections of the human genome in which they occur serve no function. It simply means that the (mostly neutral) changes taking place in that section of the genome will neither help nor harm the organism. By itself, that tells us nothing about what percentage of the genome is junk.

Second, Professor Moran is committing a verbal sleight-of-hand here: he is equating “neutral” with “junk.” As Professor Moran himself writes: “The correct definition of ‘junk’ is DNA that has no known function.” Note the wording here: “no known function.” A neutral mutation, on the other hand, is simply one that does not affect an organism’s ability to survive and reproduce. That doesn’t mean the mutation has no function; it simply means that it has no present function. A neutral mutation that might not affect an organism’s ability to reproduce, but it could still conceivably have an impact (positive or negative) on the fertility of the organism’s distant descendants. Or again, the mutation might (for all we know) incorporate information that is of no use to the particular species of organism in which it occurs, but which eventually turns out to be useful to that species’ evolutionary descendants. Of course, one would want to see some experimental evidence for these scenarios. The reason why I’m mentioning them is simply to show that Professor Moran’s equation of “neutral” with “junk” is conceptually careless.

Junk DNA – how much is there?

I’d like to preface my remarks by saying that I have no expertise whatsoever in genetics, and my knowledge of junk DNA is very limited. However, I’ve watched Professor PZ Myers’ video on junk DNA, and I’ve also skimmed Professor Moran’s lengthy review of Dr. Jonathan Wells’ book, The Myth of Junk DNA (see here for some more positive reviews and here for a list of news updates on junk DNA, over at Evolution News and Views). Suffice it to say that when a Professor of Medical Genetics writes, “I strongly recommend The Myth of Junk DNA, a lucid account of the evidence that junk DNA has many diverse biological functions,” and when a Professor of Microbial Genetics and Cell Biology adds that “Jonathan Wells has clearly done his homework,” you know the book can’t be as awful as Professor Moran claims it is. A short summary of Dr. Wells’ views on junk DNA can be found in his online article, Not Junk After All: Non-Protein-Coding DNA Carries Extensive Biological Information.

I would also recommend reading Dr. Richard Sternberg’s article, Matheson’s Intron Fairy Tale, Professor Moran’s reply, Sternberg’s counter-reply, Moran’s second response to Sternberg, and the follow-up article by Dr. Jonathan Wells, titled, The Fact-Free “Science” of Matheson, Hunt and Moran: Ridicule Instead of Reason, Authority Instead of Evidence. The upshot of this discussion is that of the number of human introns (non-protein coding parts of genes) that undergo alternative splicing (which suggests that they have a biological function) is at least 45,000, out of 190,000 introns in the human genome – which is far more than the figure of up to 1,000 that was originally estimated by Matheson, but which may still represent less than 30% of all introns. In short: the question of junk DNA remains open.

Of more recent interest is the September 2012 announcement by the leader of the ENCODE team that 80 percent of the genome has a “biochemical function,” meaning that “It’s not junk.” (Birney has blogged about his announcement here and here. In a review article for Nature, titled, Fighting abut ENCODE and junk (Nature News blog, 6 September 2012), science correspondent Brendan Maher offers a cooler assessment:

…[P]erhaps the main conclusion should have been that 20% of the genome in some situation can directly influence gene expression and phenotype of at least one human cell type. It’s a far cry from 80%, but a substantial increase from 1%.

Science writer Ed Yong (who originally broke news of ENCODE’s discovery), summarizes the ongoing controversy in an addendum to his report in Discover magazine (5 September 2012; update 7 September 2012):

Birney was right about the scepticism. [T. Ryan] Gregory [from Guelph University] says, “80 percent is the figure only if your definition is so loose as to be all but meaningless.” Larry Moran from the University of Toronto adds, “Functional” simply means a little bit of DNA that’s been identified in an assay of some sort or another. That’s a remarkably silly definition of function and if you’re using it to discount junk DNA it’s downright disingenuous.”…

Gregory asks why, if ENCODE is right and our genome is full of functional elements, does an onion have around five times as much non-coding DNA as we do? Or why pufferfishes can get by with just a tenth as much? Birney says the onion test is silly. While many genomes have a tight grip upon their repetitive jumping DNA, many plants seem to have relaxed that control. Consequently, their genomes have bloated in size (bolstered by the occasional mass doubling)… Conversely, the pufferfish has maintained an incredibly tight rein upon its jumping sequences. “Its genome management is pretty much perfect,” says Birney. Hence: the smaller genome.

But Gregory thinks that these answers are a dodge. “I would still like Birney to answer the question. How is it that humans “need” 100% of their non-coding DNA, but a pufferfish does fine with 1/10 as much [and] a salamander has at least 4 times as much?”

Regarding the onion test, readers might be interested in having a look at Professor Larry Moran’s post in response to a post by Jonathan M., and Jonathan M.’s subsequent reply to Moran, titled, Why the “Onion Test” Fails as an Argument for “Junk DNA” (2 November 2011). Professor Moran’s brief response is here.

Professor Moran, who still thinks that 90% of our DNA is junk, also makes the telling point that “almost 50% of our genome is littered with dead transposons and bits of transposons,” which one would not expect to have a function. Yet even he acknowledges that “there are some other scientists who think that all of the human genome is functional.”

In light of the above-mentioned uncertainties, I think a prudent estimate of the percentage of junk DNA in the human genome would be: somewhere around 50%. It could be quite a bit more … or it could be a lot less.

Junk DNA – how much could the Intelligent Design movement live with?

Suppose that the “50% junk” figure is true. Could the Intelligent Design movement live with that? Personally, I don’t see why not. Let’s try a little thought experiment. Would it bother you if 1% of our genome turned out to be junk? I don’t imagine so. All right. What about 10%? That still leaves 90% that is functional, so I can’t see why it would matter either. Well, what about 50%? Even if 50% of our DNA were junk, you could still say that half of the human genome is there for a reason, and that the remaining half, while non-functional, isn’t harming us. That doesn’t sound so bad to me. What’s the problem?

Professor PZ Myers, in a talk given to Skepticon IV on November 19-20, 2011, quotes [at 4:56] a well-known passage from the writings of Professor William Dembski on junk DNA:

[Intelligent] design is not a science stopper. Indeed, design can foster enquiry where traditional evolutionary approaches obstruct it. Consider the term “junk DNA.” Implicit in this term is the view that because the genome of an organism has been cobbled together through a long, undirected evolutionary process, the genome is a patchwork of which only limited portions are essential to the organism. Thus on an evolutionary view we expect a lot of useless DNA. If, on the other hand, organisms are designed, we expect DNA, as much as possible, to exhibit function.
(“Science and Religion” in First Things, 17 March 2009.)

As far as I can tell, all that follows from the hypothesis of Intelligent Design is that any organisms that were designed de novo, or from scratch, should be free of junk DNA. But even if the Intelligent Designer subsequently manipulated the DNA of these organisms’ descendants, to make other kinds of organisms, I see no reason to suppose that He would have also “wiped the slate clean” at the same time, and erased all traces of the junk DNA that had accumulated in that organism over the course of time. Of course, a Designer might do that, as an act of courtesy; but who is to say that He must? Why not simply let the junk stay there, if it’s not harming the organism and if it’s not likely to harm its descendants? What do readers think?

Dr. Richard Sternberg on letting God be God

In a 2008 article titled, How My Views on Evolution Evolved, Dr. Richard Sternberg writes:

I cannot overemphasize the number of times I have listened to evolutionary biologists theologize on the basis of some gnosis they have concerning divine actions. One case stands out in particular. Francis Collins, director of the National Human Genome Research Institute at the NIH, showed a small group that included me a presumably “dead gene,” a pseudogene. Now his line of argumentation went something like this:

A. We know this pseudogene has no function, and therefore no purpose.

B. We know also that God would not make functionless, purposeless objects.

Therefore God had no role in the creation of the pseudogene – it was a random event.

Based on my conversations with Collins, it became apparent to me that his god is a strict nineteenth-century utilitarian who would, if he deigned to create, manufacture only highly efficient and minimalist entities. His deity would only provide evidence of his handiwork by means of Bauhaus-like architectures, as Baroque or Rococo designs would be, well, excessive and wasteful. A purposefully, intelligently designed cell would, judging from his points, resemble ever so much Fritz Lang’s Metropolis. And since what we so often observe are over-the-top excrescences and strings of DNA that just don’t seem to have a purpose – bad, sloppy design according to Collins’ way of thinking – we know, we know – as a scientific fact, no less – that the genome is randomly cobbled together in length and breadth and all the way up and down.

It seems to me that Dr. Sternberg has a valid point here. It is presumptuous for us to assume that God would not allow any junk in the human genome. That being the case, we should be wary of predicting the occurrence of little or no junk DNA in the genome.

I’d now like to address Professor Larry Moran’s final point.

5. Theistic Evolution

5. Theistic Evolution: There’s only one group that’s more evil than materialistic scientists and that’s theistic evolutionists. They are traitors. But if the IDiots actually were to accept the fundamental concepts of evolution, as Sal Cordova and Vincent Torley seem to be doing, then where does that leave Theistic Evolution Creationism? This cold be embarrassing when you look at all the posts on Uncommon Descent where theistic evolutionists have been mercilessly attacked.

The term “Intelligent Design proponent” could be understood in a very broad sense, as including anyone who believes that the cosmos (or at the very least, some feature of it) was designed by an Intelligent Being. On this broad definition (used by Professor Michael Behe below), theistic evolutionists already qualify as Intelligent Design advocates.

However there are two major differences separating the ID and theistic evolution camps. As regards science, the critical question that separates Intelligent Design proponents from theistic evolutionists is not whether evolution occurred, nor even whether evolution (if it occurred) was guided by God, but rather, whether the existence of an Intelligent Being guiding evolution is scientifically detectable. Modern-day theistic evolutionists say no; Intelligent Design advocates say yes.

In addition, theistic evolutionists and ID advocates are also divided on a theological level. In a 2007 post titled, Kenneth R. Miller and the Problem of Evil, Part 2 (25 October 2007), Intelligent Design advocate Professor Michael Behe gives a very clear exposition of the key issues that separate him from Catholic biochemist Kenneth Miller, who like Behe accepts common descent but rejects Intelligent Design. Although he dislikes the label, Miller could fairly be described as a theistic evolutionist. At the end of Part 1 (October 24, 2007) of his series of posts, Behe had written:

So let me emphasize: Kenneth Miller is an intelligent design proponent. He believes that the laws of the universe were purposely set up to permit life to develop. Miller thinks that, to accomplish the goal of life, the universe had to be designed to the depth of its fundamental physical constants. I agree with him as far as he goes, but, on the other hand, as I write in The Edge of Evolution, I think design extends further into the universe, past physical constants, past anthropic coincidences, and well into biology. Yet, with respect to design, he and I differ only on degree, not on principle.

In Part 2, Behe continues:

Let me emphasize the last point of my previous post: Miller and I are only quibbling over the extent of design in the universe. The fact of design, the principle of design, we agree on.

Now, let’s look a little closer at where Ken Miller draws the limits of design (the edge of evolution, one might say). Although they are clearly necessary, is there reason to suppose that the bare laws and constants of the universe — even if properly tuned — are sufficient to assure life occurs in our universe, as Miller supposes? The answer is no — many other features than just the bare laws of the universe have to be gotten right. I discuss this at considerable length in the last chapter of the book. But don’t just take my word for it. The prominent bioinformatician Eugene Koonin recently published a paper entitled “The cosmological model of eternal inflation and the transition from chance to biological evolution in the history of life”, (Biol Direct., 2007, 2:15). The gist of the paper is that — even given fine tuned laws and constants — the origin of life in our universe is so unlikely, that the non-theist Koonin invokes an infinite multiverse to assure that life happens somewhere.

…So suppose Koonin is right that fine tuning the laws of the universe is far from sufficient to assure life. In that case, switching to Miller’s scenario, God would have set up a generic universe whose laws and constants were necessary for life, but not sufficient. Since many other conditions are required for life, Miller’s God likely made a fine tuned universe for naught. It would likely be a finely tuned universe that’s nonetheless barren of life.

In The Edge of Evolution I agree with Miller (and other “theistic evolutionists”) that the laws and constants of our universe are fine tuned, but argue that “fine-tuning” extends much more deeply into nature than previously supposed, and actually extends into life itself, at least down to the level of vertebrate class. I cleverly call this view “extended fine-tuning.” In the book I argue that any person who accepts a theistic evolutionary view, such as Miller does, should have no trouble in principle with the extended fine tuning view. It is, after all, just a matter of degree. In either case the designer fine tuned enough details of our universe to get intelligent life to arise.

In Part 3 of his series, Professor Behe goes on to address the real reason that he thinks theistic evolutionists balk at Intelligent Design: since some organisms that harm human beings (e.g. the malaria parasite) appear to have been designed according to the criteria used by the ID movement, that would appear to imply that the Designer is malevolent. In other words, the issue dividing the two camps, as Behe sees it, is a theological one. Behe’s thoughtful reply is well worth reading. After adducing supporting quotations, Behe argues that Kenneth Miller and Francisco Ayala “embrace Darwinism, at least in large part, for theological reasons”: if God is not involved in the “nuts-and-bolts” of designing Nature, then He cannot be held responsible for its dangerous by-products (such as mosquitoes). Behe doesn’t buy this argument: “It seems to me that designing a poor Darwinian process that inevitably spins off natural evils leaves One as vulnerable to being sued for incompetence as directly designing them as finished products.” He goes on to say that “as a scientist, one is obliged to look at the evidence of nature dispassionately and nonjudgmentally.” Behe adds that for all we know, parasites and viruses may “actually play positive roles in the economy of biology, of which we are in large part unaware,” in which case the harm they cause to humans is an unintended side-effect. Finally, he points out that “[e]ven if God purposely designed the malarial parasite, He may not have decreed that a particular infected mosquito would bite a particular person on a particular day.”

Behe’s conclusion is worth quoting in full:

As I wrote in The Edge of Evolution, it seems to me that our world was designed to be a a dangerous living stage, one that’s set up for improvisational theater. It allows for real suffering, real pleasure, real pain, real joy. It allows for real freedom and real consequences. But if the world were not designed in sufficient detail, then no intelligent life would be around to act on the stage.

Comments
The falsification for local realism (reductive materialism) was recently greatly strengthened:
Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism - November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html Zeilinger Group - Photons run out of loopholes - April 15, 2013 Excerpt: A team led by the Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger has now carried out an experiment with photons, in which they have closed an important loophole. The researchers have thus provided the most complete experimental proof that the quantum world is in conflict with our everyday experience.,,, In a nutshell: "Our photons can no longer duck out of being measured," says Zeilinger. http://vcq.quantum.at/research/research-groups/zeilinger-group/news/details/419.html Closing the last Bell-test loophole for photons - Jun 11, 2013 Excerpt: In the years since, many "Bell tests" have been performed, but critics have identified several conditions (known as loopholes) in which the results could be considered inconclusive. For entangled photons, there have been three major loopholes; two were closed by previous experiments. The remaining problem, known as the "detection-efficiency/fair sampling loophole," results from the fact that, until now, the detectors employed in experiments have captured an insufficiently large fraction of the photons, and the photon sources have been insufficiently efficient. The validity of such experiments is thus dependent on the assumption that the detected photons are a statistically fair sample of all the photons. That, in turn, leaves open the possibility that, if all the photon data were known, they could be described by local realism. The new research, conducted at the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Communication in Austria, closes the fair-sampling loophole by using improved photon sources (spontaneous parametric down-conversion in a Sagnac configuration) and ultra-sensitive detectors provided by the Single Photonics and Quantum Information project in PML's Quantum Electronics and Photonics Division. That combination, the researchers write, was "crucial for achieving a sufficiently high collection efficiency," resulting in a high-accuracy data set – requiring no assumptions or correction of count rates – that confirmed quantum entanglement to nearly 70 standard deviations.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-06-bell-test-loophole-photons.html Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory - 29 October 2012 Excerpt: The new hidden influence inequality shows that the getout won't work when it comes to quantum predictions. To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can't stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, "Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them," http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939
2.
Since non-local quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to a matter energy basis, is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale, why do neo-Darwinists pretend that information can ‘emerge’ from a material basis?
and here are my references in that regard:
Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/ Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum entanglement between the electron clouds of nucleic acids in DNA - Elisabeth Rieper, Janet Anders and Vlatko Vedral - February 2011 http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1006/1006.4053v2.pdf Quantum Entanglement Holds DNA Together, Say Physicists - June 28, 2010 http://www.technologyreview.com/view/419590/quantum-entanglement-holds-dna-together-say-physicists/
bornagain77
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
08:27 AM
8
08
27
AM
PDT
kf, seeing that I have gone over these basic points on several occasions, I'm a bit surprised you would request the references, as it would seem to be boring for you. But I guess you mean it, at the risk of boring people, to prove a point. So here is an overview of the references for each of the 5 questions that I asked at post 17: 1.
Since quantum teleportation/entanglement experiments have falsified reductive materialism as true, and have shown that we live in a universe that is information theoretic in its basis, as well as showing that the universe is dependent on a non-local, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence, why do neo-Darwinists pretend that reductive materialism, which undergirds neo-Darwinian thought, is still true?
Here are my references for the claim that "energy and mass both reduce to information":
Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,, “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts New Breakthrough in (Quantum) Teleportation - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xqZI31udJg Quote from preceding video: "There are 10^28 atoms in the human body.,, The amount of data contained in the whole human,, is 3.02 x 10^32 gigabytes of information. Using a high bandwidth transfer that data would take about 4.5 x 10^18 years to teleport 1 time. That is 350,000 times the age of the universe." Physicists set new record for quantum teleportation with matter qubits - Apr 16, 2013 Excerpt: "The greatest significance of our work is the dramatic increase in efficiency compared to previous realizations of matter-matter teleportation," Nölleke said. "Besides, it is the first demonstration of matter-matter teleportation between truly independent systems and constitutes the current record in distance of 21 m. The previous record was 1 m." http://phys.org/news/2013-04-physicists-quantum-teleportation-qubits.html How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/teleportation1.htm Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,, http://www.sciencemag.org/content/282/5389/706.abstract
As to the 'information theoretic' foundation of the universe:
"it from bit” Every “it”— every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely—even if in some contexts indirectly—from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits. “It from bit” symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has a bottom—a very deep bottom, in most instances, an immaterial source and explanation, that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment—evoked responses, in short all matter and all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe." – Princeton University physicist John Wheeler (1911–2008) (Wheeler, John A. (1990), “Information, physics, quantum: The search for links”, in W. Zurek, Complexity, Entropy, and the Physics of Information (Redwood City, California: Addison-Wesley)) Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation:
as to the dependence of the universe on a 'non-local' beyond space and time, cause to explain its continued existence:
Bohemian Gravity - Rob Sheldon - September 19, 2013 Excerpt: Quanta magazine carried an article about a hypergeometric object that is as much better than Feynman diagrams as Feynman was better than Heisenberg's S-matrices. But the discoverers are candid about it, "The amplituhedron, or a similar geometric object, could help by removing two deeply rooted principles of physics: locality and unitarity. “Both are hard-wired in the usual way we think about things,” said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and the lead author of the new work, which he is presenting in talks and in a forthcoming paper. “Both are suspect.”" What are these suspect principles? None other than two of the founding principles of materialism--that there do not exist "spooky-action-at-a-distance" forces, and that material causes are the only ones in the universe.,,, http://rbsp.info/PROCRUSTES/bohemian-gravity/ Quantum Entanglement – The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect (Bohr vs. Einstein) - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM
bornagain77
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
08:25 AM
8
08
25
AM
PDT
I'll happily concede on that, gp! I sometimes used to talk on the phone to a translator at the Court of Human Rights in Luxembourg, and he said he wouldn't touch Italian for that reason. That would, of course, have been formal, legal language, but from what I've seen of the vernacular, it would be right off the dial!!!Axel
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
05:32 AM
5
05
32
AM
PDT
Axel: Even more than six, I would say! :)gpuccio
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
05:24 AM
5
05
24
AM
PDT
It is even written in a very simple and lucid style - which seems as uncommon for you as it is for me, when I hold forth. I think we normally demonstrate the Latins' prolixity and verbosity: Balzacian, I would venture. The Italians, for that matter, will use six words where one would suffice. Isn't that so, gp? However, the nature of the topics you address in any detail, by and large, evidently prohibit a simple treatment.Axel
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
05:05 AM
5
05
05
AM
PDT
Thank you BA77 for your #17. It could well be that that, or an amplified version of it, will one day be a famously historical, because long overdue, setting forth of the basic truths of modern science, established as far back as the early 20th century. Moreover, since the progress of QM research has been uniquely successful, in terms of its relentless vindication by its practicable usage in industrial manufacturing, and yet is still marginalised by the materialist establishment in favour of idle, gratuitous conjecture, the shame attaching to the wilful stupidity of atheism's brightest and best will know no bounds, in the eyes of everyone throughout all levels of society. Perhaps your conspectus will be the first text taught to science pupils in schools; together atheism's mindless obstructionism. I hope so.Axel
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
04:57 AM
4
04
57
AM
PDT
BA77, in 17: I hereby request, show us the list -- or maybe even better, link to an annotated bibliography page kept at Google Drive or the like. (Cf. the one I did for IOSE, meant as a 101, here.) KFkairosfocus
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
03:29 AM
3
03
29
AM
PDT
Folks: I have a basic framing and tone problem with Dr Moran and ilk, as I have had occasion to say to him when he tried to target me. I have no reason to accept that "Creationism" is the big tent for design thought, which can be documented to have roots in the likes of that Bible-thumping fundy . . . NOT . . . Plato. In that context, the fallacy of the complex, insinuation-laced accusatory "question" lurks. So, instead of answering such questions, I think a few quick notes on underlying points and issues are appropriate: 1 --> To become a reasonable interlocutor, Dr Moran needs to read and take to heart the UD Weak Argument Correctives. Failing which, his behaviour is willfully grounded on accusations and insinuations he knows or should know are false and toxic. 2 --> To characterise intelligent, educated people, across the board as "IDiots" is bigotry, slander and invidious, smug stereotyping. 3 --> To characterise us, similarly across the board, as misinformed on "evolution" is loaded and false. The theory itself is not hard to understand in essentials, whether at micro level [largely uncontroversial] or macro-level [hugely controversial, for good reason], or at a priori ideological level [even more controversial]. 4 --> FYI, the basic problem is that micro-level variations have been extrapolated beyond reason to a macro picture largely controlled by the Lewontinian a priori as aptly summarised by Lewontin in his well-known 1997 NYRB article:
the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And if you imagine that this summary is somehow "quote mined" or is justified, kindly see the wider citation and annotations in the just linked.]
5 --> That is already enough to highlight a big problem on Science in Society, as evolutionary materialism is inherently, demonstrably, inescapably amoral; where moral is used in any sense worth having. 6 --> In that context, the refusal to squarely face and address facts on the decades-long abuses tied to dominance of evolutionism and scientism, such as eugenics, so-called scientific racism, undermining of the sacred value of human life and the human being from conception to birth to natural death, and yes, the associated history, is a red warning flag. 7 --> As one trained in physical sciences, with Hiroshima as the irremovable albatross around my neck as a direct result, I know that science can become a plank in an ideology that ends in awful things. When I see evolutionism advocates similarly owning the less happy facets of the past, I will have reason to be less concerned. Until that day, I will raise the biggest red warning flags I can find. Those who refuse to learn from sad history are doomed to relive it. 8 --> Common descent is irrelevant to the focal question addressed by the design inference: whether or no, there are empirical signs that on vera causa basis, point to design as best current explanation of certain features of the natural world, including cell based life. On evidence, the best answer to this is, yes. 9 --> As to various views on origins otherwise and their warrant, let every tub stand on its own bottom. 10 --> That's right, let the evidence decide. 11 --> As in, a scientific, design perspective can live with universal common descent in an old earth and cosmos, indeed with a world in which purely natural means led to the origin and diversification of life to include us. Especially, as that implies fine tuning to an astonishing degree above and beyond what is already on the table. 12 --> Which brings out, that the reason why it is argued that the world of life reflects signs of design is . . . because that is so blatantly so, as even Dawkins has long since had to concede in defining biology as the study of complicated things that have the [strong] appearance of design. ___________________ I trust that we can now move to a more reasonable basis for discussion. KFkairosfocus
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
03:08 AM
3
03
08
AM
PDT
I have a few questions of my own: Since quantum teleportation/entanglement experiments have falsified reductive materialism as true, and have shown that we live in a universe that is information theoretic in its basis, as well as showing that the universe is dependent on a non-local, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence, why do neo-Darwinists pretend that reductive materialism, which undergirds neo-Darwinian thought, is still true? 2. Since non-local quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to a matter energy basis, is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale, why do neo-Darwinists pretend that information can 'emerge' from a material basis? 3. Since quantum mechanics shows us consciousness precedes material reality, instead of being emergent from it, why do neo-Darwinists pretend that consciousness is emergent from a material basis? 4. Since the evidence for the veracity of Near Death Experiences is much, much, stronger than the evidence for neo-Darwinism is, why do neo-Darwinists so vehemently defend neo-Darwinism as true while so vehemently attacking Near Death Experiences as false? 5. Since neo-Darwinism has no rigid mathematical basis so as to potentially falsify it, as other overarching theories of science do (including Intelligent Design), why do neo-Darwinists insist that only neo-Darwinsm is 'scientific' when in reality it is merely a non-falsifiable pseudo-science? (references upon request)bornagain77
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
02:07 AM
2
02
07
AM
PDT
Excellent post Stephen B, and I whole heartedly agree. It seems to me that Behe might sometimes be too gracious with theistic evolutionists like miller and Collins. I read Collins book language of God, and it was so disjointed in trying to describe how God fit into all of this that the Darwinists must have been having af field day with him.wallstreeter43
April 19, 2014
April
04
Apr
19
19
2014
01:24 AM
1
01
24
AM
PDT
Stephen: I wholly agree with you. Miller is a true TE, and therefore everything I wrote in post #12 fully applies to him. For Behe, I am not sure. I have already criticized those passages of TEOE in the past, and I agree with you that they make no sense. But I am not sure that is really what Behe believes. I think that in that chapter he just tried to concede something to TEs, just as a possibility. I know, he shouldn't have done that, but I believe he is really a very good person. Maybe too good. :) (By the way, this is not just my personal idea. When in the past I criticized those statement here at UD, someone answered me that they were probably not really Behe's opinion, as far as he knew. Unfortunately, I cannot remember when and where exactly that discussion took place).gpuccio
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
11:47 PM
11
11
47
PM
PDT
I should have said, "If the laws and constants of our universe are sufficiently fine tuned, they will extend deeply into nature such that they guide evolution toward a specific goal" [or else the Creator will tweak them such that the desired result is attained]. Since the TEs will not allow for tweaking, and since they insist that secondary causes produce all biodiversity, they are saying that either [a] The Creator didn't care about the final result or [b] The Creator did not sufficiently fine-tune the universe to produce a specific result. Neither argument can be reconciled with theism.StephenB
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
11:36 PM
11
11
36
PM
PDT
VJ:
The term “Intelligent Design proponent” could be understood in a very broad sense, as including anyone who believes that the cosmos (or at the very least, some feature of it) was designed by an Intelligent Being. On this broad definition (used by Professor Michael Behe below), theistic evolutionists already qualify as Intelligent Design advocates.
But this broad definition can be very misleading as will become evident in these comments.
However there are two major differences separating the ID and theistic evolution camps. As regards science, the critical question that separates Intelligent Design proponents from theistic evolutionists is not whether evolution occurred, nor even whether evolution (if it occurred) was guided by God, but rather, whether the existence of an Intelligent Being guiding evolution is scientifically detectable. Modern-day theistic evolutionists say no; Intelligent Design advocates say yes.
Actually, I would say that the ID and theistic evolution camps are separated both in terms of [a] whether evolution was guided at all and [b] whether it is scientifically detectable. With respect to [a], no one I know in the TE camp admits that God guided evolution in such a way that it would produce a finished product that reflects His apriori intent, which would be the requirement for guided evolution. The problem here is that they (Collin’s, for example) use the rhetoric of guidedness and (sometimes) detectability (the “Languge of God”), but argue on behalf of non-guidedness and non-detectability as they embrace the the science of Darwinian (or Neutral) evolution, both of which are unguided. It is especially important to grasp the double-mindedness in Collins' approach or much will be lost in the analysis. If God was really using “language,” it would be for the purpose of communicating through nature, but of course, neither Collins or any other TE believe that God communicates through nature, holding that His handiwork is undetectable. Thus, the word “language” has no meaning at all for Collins except to be used as misdirection. VJ quoting Behe:
So let me emphasize: Kenneth Miller is an intelligent design proponent. He believes that the laws of the universe were purposely set up to permit life to develop.
Well, with all due respect to Behe (and VJ), that isn’t exactly the point. Miller does not believe that God necessarily intended the result that evolution produced, which means that, for Miller, God did not design the laws of the universe to guide evolution toward a specific goal. Behe continued:
He thinks that, to accomplish the goal of life, the universe had to be designed to the depth of its fundamental physical constants. I agree with him as far as he goes, but, on the other hand, as I write in The Edge of Evolution, I think design extends further into the universe, past physical constants, past anthropic coincidences, and well into biology. Yet, with respect to design, he and I differ only on degree, not on principle.
I think the disagreement goes much deeper or at least it should. In order for evolution to be “guided,” which is a requirement for theism, it isn’t enough that the process should accomplish the “goal of life.” It must produce a specific kind of life that matches the precise intentions of the Creator. I know of no TE that believes that it does (with the possible exception of those who think like Behe).
In The Edge of Evolution I agree with Miller (and other “theistic evolutionists”) that the laws and constants of our universe are fine tuned, but argue that “fine-tuning” extends much more deeply into nature than previously supposed, and actually extends into life itself, at least down to the level of vertebrate class. I cleverly call this view “extended fine-tuning.” In the book I argue that any person who accepts a theistic evolutionary view, such as Miller does, should have no trouble in principle with the extended fine tuning view. It is, after all, just a matter of degree. In either case the designer fine tuned enough details of our universe to get intelligent life to arise.
Again, I am afraid that Behe misses the deeper point. If the laws and constants of our universe are sufficiently fine tuned, they will extend deeply into nature such that they guide evolution toward a specific goal. If evolution is not guided toward a specific goal, that is, if the result of the process is, as the TEs would have it, indeterminate, then either nature’s laws and fine tuning were not sufficient to produce what the Creator wanted, or else the Creator didn’t care or even know what would emerge from the process. This is not theism. I am not even sure that it rises to the level of Deism. In effect, Miller, Collins, BioLogos etc. are arguing that God designed the universe to degenerate into a hit and miss, evolutionary process that doesn’t know where it is going, which is exactly what the Godless proponents of Darwinistic (and Neutral?) evolution propose.StephenB
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
11:24 PM
11
11
24
PM
PDT
VJ: Here are my brief answers to Moran. But first, a general premise: If ID is a big tent, it's just because whoever believe that design has a part in the configuration of natural reality is an IDist. I have said many times, here, that the beautiful thing in ID is that there is no party line. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. Obviously, exactly because there is no party line, I feel no obligation to believe everything that some other IDist, however important, believes. Not only I am not a YEC and not only I accept CD, which I have recently defended here, but I have also debated critically many aspects of what Dembski says, just as an example. I will go on agreeing with the things I agree with, and disagreeing with the things I disagree with. Basically, I believe in the big tent of science. That said, let's go to the answers: 1) Darwinism. So, according to Moran and Myers, neo darwinism is dead. That's good news, because it means that the triumph of ID is complete. Indeed, there is not other game in place. ID is the only reasonable explanation left. Unfortunately, that is not so true as Moran and Myers, probably too eager to substitute a new party line for the old one, would like to believe. First of all, we should inform Dawkins and many others, including most of the debaters at TSZ, for example, that modern biology has understood, at last, that NS has no role in generating functional information in living beings, as we have always said. And that the inference to macroevolution from simple known examples of microevolution is a folly, as we have always said. They will not be happy, I presume, but who cares? At least, I will not have to spend days debating that functional selectable precursors to protein superfamilies don't exist, and will never come into existence only because neo darwinists hope that will happen. Please, inform Petrushka, Mark Frank, Elizabeth, Zachriel, and all the intelligent people who have spent so many hours defending a wrong idea. They will not be happy, and I care for them, because they are sincere and smart persons. But, I don't know why, I am not so sure that what Moran says is so final. I am not even completely sure that he really means it. After all, Myers states:
This does not in any way imply that selection is unimportant, but only that most molecular differences will not be a product of adaptive, selective changes.
Emphasis mine. And Moran states:
We now know that random genetic drift is an important mechanism of evolution and there’s more to evolution than natural selection.
Emphasis mine. So, what has changed under the not so big tent of neo darwinism? Nothing. NS is still the only useful actor. An actor who cannot act, but an actor just the same. Neutral variation and genetic drift are there, as we have always known, but are irrelevant to the problem we debate here. I have said that simple thing for years, here. After all, Dawkins has no reasons to be unhappy. 2) Social Darwinism. I am simply not interested in the issue. However, it stands to reason that, if neo darwinism is not dead at all, as I tried to argue at point 1), then any criticism of its socail role, true or wrong that it is, is pertinent. And, if neo darwinism is dead, then those criticisms were certainly pertinent when it was still alive. So, where is the problem? 3) Common Descent. My position is well known. I have been defending CD here many times, up to this same day. But, obviously, there is place under our "big tent" for anyone who sees design as the best explanation for biological information. Including YECs. I have the greatest respect and admiration for YECs like Sal and Paul Giem, for example. But I don't agree with them on some important points. For clarity, I sum up here the most "conntroversial" points which I fully believe in: a) I believe that our earth is an old earth. b) I believe that Common Descent is real, that it is the best explanation for many of the facts we observe, and that it is a designed Common Descent. c) I am in no way a supporter of creation science. To be more clear, I don't believe that scientific reasoning should in any way be motivated, guided or limited by what we believe religiously. What we believe religiously can certainly be an inspiration and will inevitably support us in our scientific activity, as it happens for whatever one strongly believes. But scientific activity must be kept free from undue influence of our religious beliefs. I hope that is clear enough. 4) Junk DNA Here, the problem is very simple. Moran says:
If Cordova is right then most of the stochastic substitutions in the human genome are neutral. This must mean that most of our genome is junk.
Emphasis mine. That is simply not true. It "must not mean" anything like that. The simple truth is: a) Random Variation is mostly neutral. b) So called non coding DNA is mostly functional. c) The explanation for that is design. I am really disappointed Of Moran's bad use of logic. The truth is that, without design, the whole genome would be junk, indeed it would not exists at all. 5)Theistic Evolution That's not a problem for me. I have never hidden what I think of TEs. They are not evil, they are not traitors. They are simply wrong. Their main idea is simply wrong and unsupported by facts. Now, there can certainly be variations of TE which I would even accept. So, just to be clear, I will state explicitly what I mean when I say that I don't accept TE: a) I don't believe that all the requisites for life to evolve algorithmically were set at the beginning of our physical universe. IOWs, while many of the properties of our physical universe are necessary for life to exist (see the fine tuning argument), in now way they are sufficient for life to evolve without any active design intervention after the big bang. But where is the problem? TEs, if they believe in that strict form of TE, are not IDists, for their own choice. They believe in design of the universe, but not in biological design, which is the main point of ID. Kenneth Miller is not an IDist, any more than Dawkins or Moran himself. They are out of the big tent, because they never entered it, and they will remain out of the big tent. And so? Again, I cannot see how neutral theory and genetic drift may have any relevance on the status of TEs. Again, Moran's use of logic is really strange.gpuccio
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
11:09 PM
11
11
09
PM
PDT
Professor Moran says: "What Neutral Theory tells us is that a huge number of mutations are neutral and there are far more neutral mutations fixed by random genetic drift that there are beneficial mutations fixed by natural selection. The conclusion is inescapable. Random genetic drift is, by far, the dominant mechanism of evolution." "Junk DNA: If Cordova is right then most of the stochastic substitutions in the human genome are neutral. This must mean that most of our genome is junk. " If this is correct is it correct to conclude that most of the evolution is due to junk DNA? Can you give solid arguments that evolution can be driven by random drift of random errors in a DNA full of junk? Isn't that as saying we can build (whatever) by random destruction of garbage? How can 100000 generations of random drift of random errors in a DNA full of junk produce a human out of a monkey ancestor?doncarlo
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
09:01 PM
9
09
01
PM
PDT
VJT:
In short: the Intelligent Design “big tent” remains standing. In order to see why it’s still standing, Professor Moran just needs to get his philosophical priorities straight.
Speaking only for myself, I don't see how this can be he case. Intelligent Design is an a-theological scientific enterprise. Young Earth Creationism is the exact opposite.Mung
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
07:23 PM
7
07
23
PM
PDT
Larry Moran:
So, here’s the situation. If the IDiots actually start understanding modern evolution then there will be consequences.
What is "non-modern evolution"? Darwinism? Neo-Darwinism? At heart you're a Darwinist, admit it. Without Darwin there is no anti-Design argument. You're going to try to explain "the appearance of design" by recourse to stochastic processes? Really? This is why many of us find it difficult to take the anti-ID camp seriously. The constant shell game.Mung
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
07:13 PM
7
07
13
PM
PDT
VJT:
Before I continue, I’d just like to point out something: the recent lively exchange of views between Intelligent Design advocates who have been blogging on Uncommon Descent on the subject of the neutral theory of evolution, has been carried out in a polite and cordial fashion, without even a trace of the name-calling, sarcasm and vulgarity that one so often finds at Websites run by outspoken atheists. That should tell you something.
After having recently apologized for my own behaviour here at UD I am not sure I can agree with this statement! :)Mung
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
07:01 PM
7
07
01
PM
PDT
1. Darwinism: If the Idiots have been misinformed about evolution, which they have, then who is responsible and why were they misled by so many of their leaders?
If Larry Moran is reading this thread and cares to answer in kind I'd certainly welcome his response. I will first answer this question and then respond with a few questions of my own. If I have been misinformed, then I am responsible and no one else. It is my responsibility and mine alone to make sure I am not misinformed, and to be always seeking the truth. There is a plethora of information out there against which to judge any claim by any so-called leaders. That said: Q1: Why isn't Larry pointing out how IDiots have been misinformed by their so-called leaders? Wouldn't that be more informative? Q2: What is the truth about evolution, and how does that "truth" obtain it's status as truth? To be misinformed surely implies there must be a truth about which one might be misinformed. Can science demonstrate that evolution is true? How? Q3: Which is more valuable, to know "the truth about evolution" or to know how to tell truth from falsehood, information from misinformation and, by extension, to understand the limits of science and have the wisdom to refrain from making false claims about what the methods of science are capable of demonstrating?Mung
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
06:52 PM
6
06
52
PM
PDT
I would say that we need to know more than we do before calling any DNA sequence junk. The apparent junk could be the physical storage space for information used to control transcription and other processes that DNA is involved in.Joe
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
06:23 PM
6
06
23
PM
PDT
We aren't sure most of the DNA is hjunk "because it doesn’t code for proteins,", but for other good reasons. It's not possible to strip all the junk DNA out of a cell.wd400
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
06:00 PM
6
06
00
PM
PDT
If creationists are correct, you’ll end up with either nothing or an extremely defective organism.
Not necessarily, see: Fault Tolerance, a greater foe to Darwinism than IC and Airplane magnetos, contingency designs and reasons ID will prevailscordova
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
05:59 PM
5
05
59
PM
PDT
Here's what I don't understand. If evolutionary biologists are so sure that most DNA is junk because it doesn't code for proteins, it would seem that there is a very simple way to test this (well, conceptually simple - I have no idea how difficult it would be to physically carry out). Strip all the "junk" out of a plant/animal's DNA. Fertilize the egg with the "clean" DNA (following a procedure like the cloning procedure, as I understand it). See what happens. If creationists are correct, you'll end up with either nothing or an extremely defective organism. If evolutionists are correct, it'll be fine. I know where I'd put my money.drc466
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
05:44 PM
5
05
44
PM
PDT
VJ, Thank you very much for your courage and persistence. I've admitted at least 4 mistakes in things I said at UD this week, even a mistake over the usage of the word "postdicive" for the last 10 years. It's no big deal. Disagreements can be expressed. What we have here is nothing like Richard Dawkins and Rebecca Watson and practically the entire atheist internet involved in Elevator Gate Here was some advice from one of the ID founders:
Perhaps most significantly, however, we can admit our mistakes and receive instruction. The evolutionists cannot. Indeed, the moment they admit that we might have a point, they let the genie out of the bottle. To open evolutionary theory to critical scrutiny would destroy their monopoly over the study of biological origins. It is simply not an option as far as they are concerned. All the same, their no-concession policy is a loser as well. The problem with this policy is its heavy-handedness in stifling inquiry. I quoted Edward Sisson earlier about the psychology he sees at play as a litigator in which “opposing lawyers are primed to reject every statement by the other side because there is no advantage to considering that the statements might be true.” Although Sisson sees this psychology at play among evolutionists, he does not find it in our ranks: “I do not see that psychology in the work of intelligent design proponents. The fact that this psychology is missing from their work is one reason why I have come to trust them more than their opponents in the debate.” Our ability to inspire such trust is the key to victory in this debate. Bill Dembski Dealing with the Backlash
Showing a commitment to truth over saving face inspires trust. The fact that we don't cover up mistakes and reasoned disagreement is a sign of integrity in the process.
I quoted Edward Sisson earlier about the psychology he sees at play as a litigator in which “opposing lawyers are primed to reject every statement by the other side because there is no advantage to considering that the statements might be true.”
The anti-IDists will reject every statement made by our side even over trivial stuff: Vernal Equinox sees outbreak of DDS Do Dead Dogs Stay dead dogs A Statistics Question for Nick Matzke Yes Lizzie, Chance is Often an Explanation The Law of Large Numbers vs Keithsscordova
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
05:30 PM
5
05
30
PM
PDT
Larry's first point is just his ignorance talking- we are not misinformed wrt evolution. And, if the pro-evo posters on his blog are any indication, we have a better grasp on evolution than most evos. Old age hasn't been kind to Larry. He is bitter, angry and confused.Joe
April 18, 2014
April
04
Apr
18
18
2014
05:12 PM
5
05
12
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply