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Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

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The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
RB: The issue is inductive logic, and we know directly that every case where we know the causal story, FSCO/I results from design, on trillions of cases. We also know the sparse needle in haystack search challenge that gives us a highly plausible reason for the empirical unobservability of FSCO/I on blind chance and mechanical necessity, on grounds quite similar to those that statistically ground the second law of thermodynamics. The inference that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design and is so strong that -- absent an a priori imposition on origins science -- it would be a no brainer. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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KF:
RB, pardon, but it seems to me that a sample that takes in all cases where we know the actual cause separately, is not unrepresentative.
Then, like Mung, you don’t know much about sampling in a scientific context, KF. Inferences from samples to larger populations have validity constrained by the degree to which the sample is representative of the population. Extensive efforts are typically made to draw samples of size and representativeness sufficient to support such inferences, characterized by statistical characteristics (e.g. power) that enable sample selection that is sufficient to determine both practical and statistical significance. Yet we know from the get-go that your sample is explicitly unrepresentative of the larger population in a central respect that has direct bearing upon the inference you claim to make: yours is a population of instances of FIASCO of which we know the provenance for a very special reason - they are all instances of human behavior - a characteristic shared by less than 1/50 quadrillionth (1/50,000 trillionth) of the entire population of claimed instances. The fact that we can know this causal provenance results precisely from the fact that it is a casual provenance that differs in crucial ways from the vast majority (and "vast majority" doesn't even say it) of the population of claimed instances. Generalizing from this "sample" (it's not a sample at all in any real respect) to the population as a whole is hopelessly misguided. ETA: "characterized by statistical characteristics (e.g power) that enable sample selection that is sufficient to determine both practical and statistical significance."Reciprocating Bill
December 9, 2014
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OldArmy94:
Personally, I don’t have a problem with ID not fitting into the narrow confines of the scientific method.
I certainly have a problem with ID not fitting into the narrow confines of the scientific method (process by which hypothesis and theoretical models are developed and tested by evidence, not the exclusive "publish or perish" journal/magazine world academia gets its science news from).Gary S. Gaulin
December 9, 2014
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Zachriel: Can you provide a mathematical equation for FSCO/I? Not with fishing rods, but the actual calculation. kairosfocus: At first level, just look in a file list for your PC, what do you think the file sizes given are but measures of FSCO/I? Not an equation. kairosfocus: Proceed tot he info carrying capacity of R/RNA at 3 bits per base, and for functional proteins, 4.32 bits per AA residue. Not an equation either. You seem to be saying to take a functional sequence, then the FSCO/I will be the Shannon Information of the sequence. Is that correct? Mung: Far more organisms have lived and died than are represented in the fossil record ... Far more DNA has existed than has been sampled. Then the question becomes whether the data is representative, and whether a detected pattern is statistically significant.Zachriel
December 9, 2014
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Reciprocating Bill:
A unique, wildly non-representative sample that reflects 1/50 quadrillionth of the total, a sample massively dwarfed by analogous instances the origins of which we do not yet understand. Seeing that as a dispositive signal of anything is the province of wishful thinking and assumed conclusions.
And there is far more that we don’t know than what we do know, therefore we cannot know anything. Let's take a couple examples: Far more organisms have lived and died than are represented in the fossil record, therefore no evolutionary inferences can be drawn from fossils. Far more DNA has existed than has been sampled. Therefore we can make no evolutionary inferences from DNA. Reciprocating Bill, anti-science. Bravo.Mung
December 9, 2014
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...he bores us to death...
Keith - I don't know if repeating the exact same thing in another thread is the best way to stop the boredom. Maybe you do that only when someone says to you: "what a great post!" Just a thought.Silver Asiatic
December 9, 2014
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Venter: Life Is Robotic Software - July 15, 2012 Excerpt: “All living cells that we know of on this planet are ‘DNA software’-driven biological machines comprised of hundreds of thousands of protein robots, coded for by the DNA, that carry out precise functions,” said (Craig) Venter. http://crev.info/2012/07/life-is-robotic-software/ How we could create life - The key to existence will be found not in primordial sludge, but in the nanotechnology of the living cell - Paul Davies - 11 December 2002 Excerpt: Instead, the living cell is best thought of as a supercomputer - an information processing and replicating system of astonishing complexity. DNA is not a special life-giving molecule, but a genetic databank that transmits its information using a mathematical code. Most of the workings of the cell are best described, not in terms of material stuff - hardware - but as information, or software. Trying to make life by mixing chemicals in a test tube is like soldering switches and wires in an attempt to produce Windows 98. It won't work because it addresses the problem at the wrong conceptual level. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2002/dec/11/highereducation.uk The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines "We have always underestimated cells. Undoubtedly we still do today,,, Indeed, the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each which is composed of a set of large protein machines." Bruce Alberts: Former President, National Academy of Sciences; http://www.imbb.forth.gr/people/aeconomou/documents/Alberts98.pdf Molecular Machines - Wikipedia These proteins and their nanoscale dynamics are far more complex than any molecular machines that have yet been artificially constructed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine Simplest Microbes More Complex than Thought Excerpt: The smallest, simplest cells are prokaryotes.,,,One of the papers in Science to which PhysOrg referred said that some 200 molecular machines are found in this little microbe. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev200912.htm#20091229abornagain77
December 9, 2014
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This bears repeating:
It’s interesting that KF’s preferred example of design — the Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel, with which he bores us to death — is full of gears, yet only one case of gearing has ever been found in nature. Did God the Designer finally get around to taking a mechanical engineering course before designing Issus coleoptratus?
keith s
December 9, 2014
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Personally, I don't have a problem with ID not fitting into the narrow confines of the scientific method. The debate is trivial, because there are many more ways to learn truth than just science. We, even those of us who should know better, have been brainwashed by Western civilization over the past several centuries into believing that science is the only way to understand reality. It isn't, of course.OldArmy94
December 9, 2014
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AR @ 155. Indicia of design exist. KF's fishing reel bears such indicia. Yes, we know the provenance of the design with respect to the fishing reel. Why is it so hard to accept that indicia of design point to an intelligent agent, and in some cases that intelligent agent might not be human? Are you suggesting that we know for certain that humans are the only beings in the universe capable of complex designs?Barry Arrington
December 9, 2014
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AR: Precisely, every Abu Fishing reel is an instance in the trillions member database showing the consistently known adequate cause of FSCO/I. Namely, intelligently directed configuration, or design. Thus it is a part of the observational basis for the inductive inference that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design; providing a part of the basis for vera causa, known adequate cause, indeed only known adequate cause. From this, we have a basis to infer on best explanation that where we see FSCO/I, its best current explanation is design. The resistance and dismissiveness to something so blatantly a part of an exercise in fairly simple inductive reasoning, is revealing. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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I'm probably going to regret this but... KF writes:
...my use of the Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel exploded diagram as an illustration of the undeniable reality of complex, organised, specific function dependent on specific wiring diagram arrangement and interaction of component parts...
There is no question that Abu Ambassadeur and other fishing reels were designed and built by Swedes.Alicia Renard
December 9, 2014
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PS: I see above the attempt to dismiss with the words, "fishing rods" my use of the Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel exploded diagram as an illustration of the undeniable reality of complex, organised, specific function dependent on specific wiring diagram arrangement and interaction of component parts; using a fairly simple and readily understood or accessed technological case, where the same pattern of FSCO/I extends to for instance protein synthesis and the like, with a tape controlled NC machine, using mRNA. The intensity of rhetorical strawman tactic dismissal of the undeniable is thus an inadvertent but telling index of the degree of unreasonableness we are facing from too many objectors -- who it seems cannot face up to what a fishing reel is telling them. And BTW, with the design of tapers, fibre fabrics, mandrels, cuts, rolling regimes, ferrules, and guides, a rod is also every inch an example of FSCO/I. It is time for such to stop.kairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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RB, pardon, but it seems to me that a sample that takes in all cases where we know the actual cause separately, is not unrepresentative. It is the inductive evidence base we have, so your attempted dismissal is effectively saying, "let us forget inductive logic and the vera causa test as it does not point where I wish." Nope, that would undo the whole scientific revolution, and would undermine the inductive knowledge base we developed to successfully live in our world. In short, your dismissal looks a lot like selective hyperskepticism, and patently ends where such usually ends, incoherence. In addition, there is an obvious reason why there is a problem with finding observed cases of FSCO/I by blind chance and mechanical necessity, sparse, sol system or observed cosmos scale resource constrained search. Remember, it is you who are arguing that codes, algorithms expressed in codes and linked execution machinery can come about in a warm salty pond or the like environment by blind chance and mechanical necessity, which means that you do need to provide causal adequacy. On my side, I simply point out the world of tech around us, and the rising tide of nanotech including molecular nanotech to miniaturise. On fair comment I have vera causa in my corner, not you. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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Z, actual quantifications of relevant cases have long since been provided, and have been insistently ignored. At first level, just look in a file list for your PC, what do you think the file sizes given are but measures of FSCO/I? Proceed tot he info carrying capacity of R/RNA at 3 bits per base, and for functional proteins, 4.32 bits per AA residue. If you wish -- just to make the point, try a toy model of 1st life, using 100 proteins of 100 AA typical not the more generally accepted 300. let's say that the only fold-functional constraint is hydrophobic/ hydrophilic AA, i.e. 1 bit per AA, implausibly generous to the spontaneous generation side, and let us ignore the homochirality issue which is another 1 bit per AA. We are already at 10 kbits of info that is functionally specific and complex for such a toy first cell. Ten times the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold for FSCO/I, where config space doubles per additional bit. The only empirically warranted explanation for that much FSCO/I is design. Objection fails. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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'RB is so upset that his position has absolutely nothing- Life is good' - Joe You ratbag!Axel
December 9, 2014
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@BA77 #33 'Moreover you ignored the fact I pointed out that Darwinism itself is built upon (faulty) Theological premises. i.e. Darwinism is ‘RELIGIOUS”. Ha! Ha! Darwin's degree was in Divinity. Oh, the delicious irony! But if you really want a good laugh, have a look at this hilarious post, a study in farcical duplicity, at Christianforums.com; an atheist posing as a truth-seeker, firstly, feigning mock intellectual humility at the awesome totally overwhelming intelligence of this atheist scientist he refers to, then later on patronisingly mocking respondents, for allegedly being 'all over the shop' (not verbatim). http://www.christianforums.com/t7853611/ Does that lad's post portray the ultimate in disingenuousness or what!Axel
December 9, 2014
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I should have said, (philosophy professors.... dare to think the unthinkable)', as a direct result of modern science'.Axel
December 9, 2014
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@Me_Think #123 I was being ironical. BA77 knows he and I are on the same metaphysical page, if I'm 'out with the washing' re the actual science and mathematics. Like many people on here, I have learned a lot about QM from BA77, though only retain the salient ontological truth that non-locality completely destroys any notion of materialism Fortunately for me, the bigger the scientific truth and the more massive its implications, the more simply it can be verbally expressed and understood. (E=MC2 comes to mind.) In this regard, just reading the Wikiquote, etc is an eye-opener. If Planck had not believed the below, it would have remained from another believer - a deist at minimum - to conceive of quantum physics: 'As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.' Atheist 'scientists' are albatrosses around true scientists' necks. No wonder they're panicking about philosophy departments. It seems philosophy professors are increasingly daring to think the unthinkable, and they have every reason to tremble.Axel
December 9, 2014
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US secularism guarantees your right to freedom to follow the religion of your choice.
LoL! That has nothing to do with secularism, Alicia.Joe
December 9, 2014
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LoL! @ Alicia Renard- All of Alicia's posts are odd rants. And she doesn't seem to understand anything about science. Very odd indeed.Joe
December 9, 2014
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PS @ WJM, US secularism guarantees your right to freedom to follow the religion of your choice. Your unique "spirituality" could get you condemned to death if you lived in Pakistan.Alicia Renard
December 9, 2014
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Odd rant at 143, WJM.Alicia Renard
December 9, 2014
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AR said:
When we see marks in the snow being traced by invisible fingers, then I might have to start taking ID ideas seriously.
So, if one doesn't take ID seriously, the question is, why bother debating it? Why bother acting like you're involved in a serious dialogue? Like so many others of AR's ilk, they don't come here to "debate" at all; if they don't take ID ideas seriously, what compels them to involve themselves? What they do take seriously, IMO, is the ideological threat ID poses to their socio-political agenda. Which is why many of them (like AR, apparently) involve themselves only inasmuch as they can add to the ridicule, dismissal, obfuscation, and denial of those ID ideas. This is why we do not get serious, well-thought arguments and reasonable inferences but rather nothing but invective-laced denials. Perhaps a better line of argument with anti-ID advocates would be to tackle their misguided fears about having a Bible-literal "theocracy" imposed on them and their misguided pursuit of an entirely secularized, materialist society. While it probably would be a better targeted approach because IMO anti-IDism (as demonstrated by AR and others here) is a symptom of a larger socio-political worldview conflict, it would probably be as futile to make a worldview case as a scientific one. Materialists/darwinists/anti-theists are highly emotionally committed against religion/spirituality/theism. Their position is apparently not only immune to rational discourse, but actively avoids and attempts to undermine it.William J Murray
December 9, 2014
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Geez, Zachriel, just read the Durston, et al., paperJoe
December 9, 2014
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kairosfocus: Now, we know a common phenomenon, FSCO/I — and its consistently observed cause. Can you provide a mathematical equation for FSCO/I? Not with fishing rods, but the actual calculation.Zachriel
December 9, 2014
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Graham 117
SA”: I’ll make it simpler … ‘purpose’. Could you explain how we observe this ?
I think we just look at it and recognize it for what it is.Silver Asiatic
December 9, 2014
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RB is so upset that his position has absolutely nothing- Life is goodJoe
December 9, 2014
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KF:
We observe FSCO/I’s cause, on trillions of cases in point.
A unique, wildly non-representative sample that reflects 1/50 quadrillionth of the total, a sample massively dwarfed by analogous instances the origins of which we do not yet understand. Seeing that as a dispositive signal of anything is the province of wishful thinking and assumed conclusions.Reciprocating Bill
December 9, 2014
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Alicia admits she isn't interested in science:
When we see marks in the snow being traced by invisible fingers, then I might have to start taking ID ideas seriously.
And yet you blindly accept unguided evolution even though it has nothing.Joe
December 9, 2014
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