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Darwinian Debating Device #20: The “Whataboutism” Tactic

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Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent’s position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.  How did CR employ it here?  Let’s examine it step-by-step.

For example, the vignette Becky’s Lesson is set in an alternate history in which the Nazis won World War II, conquered the world, and completed their Final Solution by completely eradicating all 13 million Jews.  In the story, the Nazis control all media and education.  They control society with an iron fist and have indoctrinated the society they control to celebrate The Final Solution as a great good, instead of an unspeakable evil.  The obvious purpose of the story is to refute the lame materialist assertion that we see all-too-many times in these pages that “morality comes from society.”  The story exposes the vacuity of this position by demonstrating that if society determines morality, the Holocaust would have been moral if the Nazis had won the war and controlled societal discourse.

A commenter who goes by “Critical Rationalist” responded to the story not by disputing its logic but by trying to change the subject.  CR does not want to talk about Europe in living memory.  He wants to talk about the Old Testament stories about the conquest of Canaan over 3,000 years.

Let us say for the sake of argument that CR is right; that the Israelite conquest of Canaan was an example of evil ethnic cleansing.  How is that a response to the point of Becky’s Lesson?  Of course it is not.

The whole point of CR’s whataboutism ploy is not to refute the logic of the story, but to change the subject.  And why is CR so desperate to change the subject?  Because he knows as well as anyone that materialists such as he have no answer to the logic of Becky’s Lesson.  And instead of admitting that basic truth, they will go to any length to avoid addressing it.

 

Comments
CR @40
Relativists tend to be disappointed dogmatists who realise that positive confirmation cannot be achieved. From this correct premise they proceed to the false conclusion that all positions are pretty much the same and none can really claim to be better than any other. There is no such thing as the truth …
Relativism, as described above, is an incoherent position, which, unsurprisingly, gives rise to self-defeating statements. Let’s look at the following self-defeating statement:
“positive confirmation cannot be achieved”.
The statement applied to itself: 1. Positive confirmation cannot be achieved. 2. There is no positive confirmation for [“positive confirmation cannot be achieved”]. 3. [“Positive confirmation cannot be achieved”] is either self-defeating or meaningless. ... // Nota bene, this self-defeating statement is hailed by the writer as a “correct premise”. // The second self-defeating statement is a classic:
There is no such thing as the truth …
The statement applied to itself: 1. There is no such thing as the truth. 2. [“There is no such thing as the truth”] is false. 3. There is such a thing as the truth.
Fideists … If they stop to think about it they may accept that there is no logical way to establish a positive justification for their beliefs or any others, so they insist that we make our choice regardless of reason …
More nonsense. “There is no logical way to establish a positive justification for their beliefs or any others …” is (again!) a self-defeating idea. Let’s apply the statement to itself: 1. There is no logical way to establish a positive justification for beliefs. 2. There is no logical way to establish a positive justification for [“There is no logical way to establish a positive justification for beliefs.”] 3. [“There is no logical way to establish a positive justification for beliefs.”] is either self-defeating or meaningless.
According to the stance of critical preference no position can be positively justified …
Self-defeating statement … (sigh). Applied to itself, it becomes meaningless at best.
… but it is quite likely that one, (or some) will turn out to be better than others are in the light of critical discussion and tests.
How does one know? Per its own claim, this theory is unjustified. So, how do you justify that view? Why do you guys value ‘critical discussion tests’? Are they able to justify a theory? If not, why bother?
… the stance of critical preference is not a position, it is a metacontext …
Read Slagle #33 and weep.
It is concerned with the way that such positions are adopted, criticised, defended and relinquished.
How do you criticize or defend a position if justification plays no role? It cannot be done. How can one criticize e.g. E=mc^2 by pointing to an experiment, if pointing to outcomes of experiments is ‘justificationism’?Origenes
March 9, 2018
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Here is an excerpt from interview between two evangelicals, Lee Strobel and Paul Copan who have both actually studied the relevant OT texts.
LS: Obviously, we shouldn’t read the Bible in a wooden or always in a strictly “literal” way. PC: It’s important to distinguish between taking the Bible “literally” and taking it “literarily.” We shouldn’t interpret the Bible with some one-size-fits-all method. The biblical writers never intended this, but they use different types of literature or genres—poetry, prophecy, parable, Gospel—which require different approaches of interpretation. I can’t go into a lot of detail here, and I even expand upon the “utter destruction” of the Canaanites in an essay with Matthew Flannagan in a forthcoming book with InterVarsity Press, Old Testament “Holy War” and Christian Morality (coedited by Jeremy Evans, Heath Thomas, and me). I would argue that this exaggeration applies to the sweeping language of warfare texts of Joshua (Canaanites), Numbers 31 (Midianites) and 1 Samuel 15 (Amalekites). For example, Joshua (which talks about “leaving no survivors”) is closely connected to Judges 1-2 (where lots of Canaanite survivors remain). Even within Joshua we read: “There were no Anakim left in the land” (11:22); they were “utterly destroyed” in the hill country (11:21). Yet Caleb later asked permission to drive out the Anakites from the hill country (14:12-15; cp. 15:13-19). Joshua’s military campaign in Canaan simply wasn’t a territorial conquest, but a series of disabling raids, as Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen argues—not military campaigns resulting in utter decimation. And this is exactly what the archaeological record shows. Furthermore, Deuteronomy and Joshua speak a lot about “driving out,” “dispossessing,” and “thrusting out” the Canaanites (Deut. 6:19; 7:1; 9:4; 18:12; Josh. 10:28, 30, 32, 35, 37, 39; 11:11, 14). If they are to be driven out, they are not literally killed or destroyed. You can’t both drive out and destroy. In all the alleged cases of “genocide,” we see plenty of survivors, which provides ample indication the biblical authors didn’t intend literal obliteration. So, if “Joshua obeyed all that Moses commanded” (Josh. 9:24; 11:12; etc.), and Joshua left many survivors, then Moses (in Dt. 20) must not have intended this either. [emphasis added]
https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2011/10/is-god-a-moral-monster/ Notice that in trying to establish their premise that the Israelite invasion of Canaan was one of the most horrific acts of genocide that the world has ever seen, our atheist interlocutors co-opt the most literalistic interpretation they can find. The truth is that most of them have never read any of the texts in question in context. They have just borrowed inane and stupid talking points that they have picked up from other atheists. But now just watch; they’ll take turns doubling down on their nonsense. Nevertheless, their baseless pretension and posturing does succeed by disrupting and derailing the discussion and debate.john_a_designer
March 9, 2018
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BA @ 21: Excellent links, thank you.LocalMinimum
March 9, 2018
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JAD,
The so-called cities that the Israelites attacked were all fortified military strongholds which had strategic military value.
What does that have to do with God instructing them to kill all of the women and children? He didn't say that if women and children happened to die, that would be acceptable. He said to kill every last man woman and child.
On the other hand, the fire-bombing of Dresden and of Tokyo by the allies in WW II were deliberate attacks on the non-combatant civilian populations. In particular Dresden was a German cultural center with very little strategic military value. Genocide? Crimes against humanity?
Not genocide, which I think is a term that is thrown around far to casually, but I would argue that these were crimes against humanity.
How about the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Neither city was considered to have high strategic value by the U.S. military. There were horrific deaths and injuries to the non-combatant civilian population. They were the targets.
I would argue that these were crimes against humanity as well. Obviously in war there are going to be civilian casualties. There always have been and always will be. In World War II the number of civilian deaths far outnumbered combatant deaths.Allan Keith
March 9, 2018
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KF,
AK, kindly cf the link at 36 above. KF
Simply saying that it was moral because God is the source of morality and God instructed the Israelites to kill the entire population, is really not an answer. God did not do the killing. People did. How do we know that this wasn't a test of the Israelites, one that they failed miserably? I don't know who here said it, but I think that they had a good point. If the scenario Barry presents actually happened and persisted for 3000 years, how would this future society perceive the holocaust? We obviously can't say for sure, but there are probably two possibilities. 1) A myth would arise around the holocaust such that it would be said to have been morally justified, as I suspect was the case with the Canaanite slaughter. 2) Society would realize the horror of the holocaust and acknowledge that it was evil and reprehensible, as we do now with slavery. Personally, I would hope for the latter, but there are enough examples of societies justifying actions that we would consider immoral to make me have doubts.Allan Keith
March 9, 2018
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Allen Keith,
If a modern day commander instructed his troops to attack a city and kill all of the citizens within it, we would not think twice about calling that a genocide.
The so-called cities that the Israelites attacked were all fortified military strongholds which had strategic military value. On the other hand, the fire-bombing of Dresden and of Tokyo by the allies in WW II were deliberate attacks on the non-combatant civilian populations. In particular Dresden was a German cultural center with very little strategic military value. Genocide? Crimes against humanity? How about the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Neither city was considered to have high strategic value by the U.S. military. There were horrific deaths and injuries to the non-combatant civilian population. They were the targets. It’s your call, Allen.john_a_designer
March 9, 2018
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Barry @ 43 -
No, you are being a liar or a psychopath. Because only a liar or a psychopath would say he does not know for an absolute certain fact that the Holocaust was evil. So which is it Bob?
Neither. As far as I am concerned, the Holocaust was evil.
By the way, I am sure I am not the only one who noticed that you dodged my last question. Which is it Bob: Would the Holocaust actually be good if everyone in a society said it was?
The point of my comment was that I can't say, without having a standard by which to judge it. By my standards it isn't good, and wouldn't be whatever the society thought. But clearly if a society thought it was good, then by their standards it would be good.Bob O'H
March 9, 2018
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AK, kindly cf the link at 36 above. KFkairosfocus
March 9, 2018
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JAD,
The killing of the Canaanites was the result of a military conquest which employed a drive them out, wipe them out strategy— leave and live, or stay and die.
But, honestly, how is this different than how the Nazi's treated the Jews in Europe. The Jews that got out lived, those that didn't...
When we look at modern warfare we do not typically refer to civilian noncombatant deaths (“collateral damage”) as genocide. How then does military action, which took place 3000 years ago get arbitrarily defined today as genocide?
I don't think that there is anything arbitrary about it. It is all about intent. If a modern day commander instructed his troops to attack a city and kill all of the citizens within it, we would not think twice about calling that a genocide. Or, at least, a crime against humanity. Why would we give a pass to something that happened 3000 years ago?Allan Keith
March 9, 2018
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RodW @ 44: In programming and formal logic, inclusive 'or' is generally assumed over exclusive 'or'. I would extend it to rhetoric.LocalMinimum
March 9, 2018
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No, you are being a liar or a psychopath. So which is it Bob?
Couldn't it be both?RodW
March 9, 2018
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Bob O'H @39:
Well, no. If I’m a moral subjectivist and I’m being precise,
No, you are being a liar or a psychopath. Because only a liar or a psychopath would say he does not know for an absolute certain fact that the Holocaust was evil. So which is it Bob? By the way, I am sure I am not the only one who noticed that you dodged my last question. Which is it Bob: Would the Holocaust actually be good if everyone in a society said it was?Barry Arrington
March 9, 2018
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RodW, in a world in which God doesn't exist the only moral would be to survive. But that is moot because there wouldn't be anything to survive.ET
March 9, 2018
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CR,I and others feel we have addressed Barry's point while Barry and others insist we haven't. We in turn have points that we feel are being ignored. I think I see the problem. We're talking past each other because our basic assumptions are different. Barry is comparing both God-based morals vs atheist morals in a world where God exists, while we are comparing God-based morals vs atheist morals in a world where God doesnt exist. This might be legitimate as long as one is clear and thorough in covering all possibilities. But I think it might also be helpful to compare God-based morals in a world where God does exist to atheist morals in a world where God doesnt exist.RodW
March 9, 2018
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@Origenes From the essay.....
Relativism, Dogmatism and Critical Preference In the light of Bartley's ideas we can discern a number of possible attitudes towards positions, notably those of relativism, dogmatism (called “fideism” in the scholarly literature) and critical preference (or in Bartley's unfortunately clumsy language, “pancritical rationalism”.) Relativists tend to be disappointed dogmatists who realise that positive confirmation cannot be achieved. From this correct premise they proceed to the false conclusion that all positions are pretty much the same and none can really claim to be better than any other. There is no such thing as the truth, no way to get nearer to the truth and there is no such thing as a rational position. Fideists are people who believe that knowledge is based on an act of faith. Consequently they embrace whatever they want to regard as the truth. If they stop to think about it they may accept that there is no logical way to establish a positive justification for their beliefs or any others, so they insist that we make our choice regardless of reason: ”Here I stand!”. Most forms of rationalism up to date have, at rock bottom, shared this attitude with the irrationalists and other fundamentalists because they share the same 'true belief' structure of thought. According to the stance of critical preference no position can be positively justified but it is quite likely that one, (or some) will turn out to be better than others are in the light of critical discussion and tests. This type of rationality holds all its positions and propositions open to criticism and a standard objection to this stance is that it is empty; just holding our positions open to criticism provides no guidance as to what position we should adopt in any particular situation. This criticism misses its mark for two reasons. First, the stance of critical preference is not a position, it is a metacontext and as such it is not directed at solving the kind of problems that are solved by adopting a position on some issue or other. It is concerned with the way that such positions are adopted, criticised, defended and relinquished. Second, Bartley does provide guidance on adopting positions; we may adopt the position that to this moment has stood up to criticism most effectively. Of course this is no help for dogmatists who seek stronger reasons for belief, but that is a problem for them, not for exponents of critical preference.
Are you suggesting, there is no distinction to be made in the third attitude?critical rationalist
March 9, 2018
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Barry @ 37 -
The story shows a situation where an act that the reader regards as KNOWS FOR AN ABSOLUTE CERTAIN FACT IS grossly immoral is shown as being morally acceptable in another society. Thus, if “morality comes from society” is true, it can lead to a situation in which known immoral acts are moral. He must admit that under certain circumstances the Holocaust would be good (note, “good,” not merely “regarded as good”) if everyone in the society believes that to be the case.
Well, no. If I'm a moral subjectivist and I'm being precise, I can say that I regard certain acts are good, and I can say that societies (or other groups) regard these acts as good, but I don't have any external objective standard by which to say that they actually are good.Bob O'H
March 9, 2018
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KF @ 36: Beautiful.Barry Arrington
March 9, 2018
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Bob O'H @ 29:
But doesn’t that actually support the materialists’ assertion? The story shows a situation where an act that the reader regards as grossly immoral is shown as being morally acceptable in another society.
Your second sentence is almost right. It should read: The story shows a situation where an act that the reader regards as KNOWS FOR AN ABSOLUTE CERTAIN FACT IS grossly immoral is shown as being morally acceptable in another society. Thus, if "morality comes from society" is true, it can lead to a situation in which known immoral acts are moral. The materialist is then on the horns of a dilemma. He must admit that under certain circumstances the Holocaust would be good (note, "good," not merely "regarded as good") if everyone in the society believes that to be the case. Or he can admit that since that is patently absurd, the premise "morality comes from society" is false. We have already seen one materialist (RodW) take the first option. Which will you choose Bob? Barry Arrington
March 9, 2018
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Qu, 20:
But … – Divine commands cannot ground objective morals — Plato, Euthyphro – Material facts about the world (social cooperation etc.) cannot ground objective morals – Hume: we cannot derive ‘ought’ from ‘is’ Therefore, it seems our shared morality must be some sort of objective but non-physical thing – like maths or logic perhaps?
The problem is deeper than that. Either our rational faculties are morally governed through duties to truth, right, justice and much more, or else they are little more than means of clever manipulation. Where, to follow that path is instantly absurd, utterly undermining reasoned discussion. Including, in this thr4ead. So, we face a challenge, that reason and right must be unified, the is and the ought must be unified. How? What Hume actually accomplishes is that moral government can only be unified with rationality and reality at world-root level. The IS-OUGHT gap is critical. The Euthyphro dilemma actually fails, also. ARBITRARY commands of a small-g god cannot ground morality, but what happens when we have a unification of all these things in the root of reality? As in, we cannot but be morally governed, starting with our reasoning. That has to be at world root level or we will find ungrounded ought. And it cannot be in a small-g god giving commands with no necessary connexion to the roots of reality. This is part of the context that leads to the only serious candidate root of reality: the inherently good and wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and of the responsible, reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. This good wise Creator God is the framework for reality, so there is no root of reality independent of him. As he is inherently good, his commands will be right, good and wise, thus trustworthy and commending themselves to us as reasonable. As morality -- governing ourselves according to sound principles of value, truth and conduct -- will be inextricably fused into the root of what is, there is no ultimate gap. As a serious candidate maximally great and necessary being, the creator God will either be impossible (as a square circle is) or else will be actual. Now, this is not an arbitrary imposition, this is philosophy. If you have a serious alternative, simply put it up: ______ . I suspect it will be found far harder to do so than one may at the first imagine. For instance, remember, grounding of rationality and its credibility are also in the stakes. KF PS: Those who need may find here on a helpful point of balance on the usual talking points on oh the Canaanites etc.kairosfocus
March 9, 2018
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DATCG (to CR):
Maybe your User Name should be Assumed Conjecture? At least this way other users would know that all your statements are conjecture and not knowledge, fact, or truth.
How about 'Unjustified Conjecture' as a user name?Origenes
March 9, 2018
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Thanks Querius
"So, who can define good? The only choices are limited to free moral agents: the Creator, created sentient beings as individuals, or created sentient beings as a majority ... [A] sentient being with complete knowledge and not bound by time is going to be the best choice to determine good."
A good point. It avoids circularity by positing that moral goodness is not just whatever God commands; it is something God determines with wisdom and foresight ... But what is the standard God uses to determine what is good, and where does it come from? "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." -- Proverbs 14:12Quaesitor
March 9, 2018
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@DATCG 30, CR
DATCG: CR, you bring up fallible criticism as if it is the only answer. This is simply your opinion.
Indeed. Moreover, CR insists that there is no justification whatsoever for his opinion. None. As CR puts it:
CR: I have given up the quest for justification.
DATCG: If, “all knowledge remains… conjectural” then that applies to your thoughts as well. And yet you expect that yours is correct in this instance? And not mere conjecture?
Again exactly right. Popper and CR seem to overlook that the general statement "all knowledge remains conjectural" also applies to their own thoughts and even to the statement itself. Slagle explains this blunder eloquently:
… those who claim that all beliefs, acts of reasoning, etc., are nonveracious are positing a closed circle in which no beliefs are produced by the proper methods by which beliefs can be said to be veracious or rational. Yet at the same time, they are arrogating to themselves a position outside of this circle by which they can judge the beliefs of others, a move they deny to their opponents. Since the raison d’être of their thesis is that there is no outside of the circle, they do not have the epistemic right to assume a position independent of it, and so their beliefs about the nonveracity of beliefs or reasoning are just as nonveracious as those they criticize. If all of the beliefs inside the circle are suspect, we cannot judge between truth and falsity, since any such judgment would be just as suspect as what it seeks to adjudicate. We would have to seek another argument, another chain of reasoning, another set of beliefs, by which we can judge the judgment—and a third set to judge the judgment of the judgment, ad infinitum. At no point can they step out of the circle to a transcendent standpoint that would allow them to reject some beliefs as tainted while remaining untainted themselves. [Slagle, The Epistemological Skyhook]
Moreover, the statement “all knowledge remains conjectural” applied to itself, shows that the statement is self-defeating or meaningless at best: Popper: all knowledge remains conjectural. Does that go for your claim as well, Popper? Is it a mere conjecture that “all knowledge remains conjectural”? Popper: Sure Then what does your claim mean? - - - - - More self-defeating statements by Popper can be found here.Origenes
March 9, 2018
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RVB8 @22 "I have to say Barry your’s and other poster’s, ‘moral relativism’, that if God commands it, it’s okay, but if man commands it, it’s not, is absurd." In truth that argument of yours is in itself totally absurd and demonstrably so. Observe what most of society agreees on Its perfectly fine to sleep with my wife. Its not fantastic for you to sleep with my wife I am fine opening my car and starting it with or without a key If you do that to my car - its grand theft auto I can take just about any piece of property I own and be within my rights to destroy it. I can even command someone else to destroy it and be fine (and them too). You destroy any of those same items belonging to me and its vandalism. If I attempt to take my life and fail I am not subject to prison time If you attempt to take my life its twenty years plus So justice and right and wrong HAS ALWAYS been subject to rights of ownership (or legal privilege) without any moral relativism whatsoever. Morality is in fact always predicated on who did what to whom and who had rights over what. Materialists making an argument that God can never ever regardless of circumstances command the life that he gave and belongs to him to be taken away are just arguing in a circle. Essentially claiming God doesn't have a right to life thereofore its wrong that he takes it or commands it to be taken even though he never promised or contracted ever that it be a forever gift. Its an emotional and irrational argument and yes based on a full understanding of morality - emminently absurd.mikeenders
March 9, 2018
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I think the general argument would be distilled as - here is an example of moral relativism in the Bible therefore theres no difference and its in fact an example of morality arising out of that society not a unviersal morality. I don't see a way of not addressing it.So in the last thread I did. 1) there was no genocide of Caananites 2) the command references cities during battle not an ongoing command to kill all canaanites whenever and wherever you saw them 3) Theres not indication of all canaanites in an area taking refuge in nearby cities (some of which would be quite small). 3) in the very first Battle in Canaan a group of caananites were commanded to be preserved women men and children - no unviversal killing of canaanites 4) passing sentencing even at the hands of humans on people who routinely took other peoples children and killed them is hardly unjust provided you knew they would be guilty of raising children who would do the same - which is the clear expressed concern of God in the Biblical narrative. So its all for naught and a weak argument. Really on an emotional level it mostly comes down to an outrage that children were to be included. the problem is we don't have this universal never ending children are always innocent feeling about all children for all time . they grow up and then we lose that. So its a beg that God who knows what men will do cannot act to preserve others against their action Its an emotional outrage argument - not a rational argument based on an understanding we are not talking about men but God who by defintion is timeless.mikeenders
March 9, 2018
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Barry is correct, CR, RodW nor anyone else has addressed his actual point. "The obvious purpose of the story is to refute the lame materialist assertion that we see all-too-many times in these pages that “morality comes from society.” The story exposes the vacuity of this position by demonstrating that if society determines morality, the Holocaust would have been moral if the Nazis had won the war and controlled societal discourse." CR, RodW, et al., ignore many modern day actions like the bombing of Japan and President Truman's orders. Why? Because they're not willing to look at authentic uses of military applications in large outcomes. Was Truman wrong? If so, how do you justify more deaths of Americans to end the war? Is it mere conjecture to save lives? Or does it have real consequences? CR, you bring up fallible criticism as if it is the only answer. This is simply your opinion. And was exposed as fallible itself. You cannot trust your own logic to espouse such answers. You could be wrong. And you are simultaneously claiming to have moral judgment on your side by such a fallible answer. Yet, as was admitted, your opinions are conjecture. So your opinions to label others wrong are not objective. Is it possible by your own logic that part of society today is impressing upon you false answers of fallible criticism? You are going in circles on this if you seriously take a look at what you propose. Your very thoughts may be wrong conjecture, not based upon logic or knowledge, but upon other people's wrong conjecture and society conjecture as others say, or specialized group-thought conjecture. Fallibilism is not an answer to what you seek. As you yourself are liable to err, misleading everyone you speak to down the wrong road. In fact, your User Name, "critical rationalist" could be a fallible label of yourself, therefore an irrational claim on your part. Your assumption of rational thoughts on your part could be based upon incorrect conjecture. Is your User Name conjecture too? From Popper...
The Critical Rationalism of Karl Popper [henceforth CR] begins by rejecting induction as a scientific method. The actual method of science, Popper maintained, is a continuous process of conjecture and refutation: "The way in which knowledge progresses, and especially our scientific knowledge, is by unjustified (and unjustifiable) anticipations, by guesses, by tentative solutions to our problems, by conjectures. These conjectures are controlled by criticism; that is, by attempted refutations, which include severely critical tests. They may survive these tests; but they can never be positively justified: they can be established neither as certainly true nor even as 'probable'..." [C&R vii]. Elsewhere, Popper put the matter more succinctly: "all knowledge is hypothetical" [OKN 30] or "All knowledge remains... conjectural" [RASC xxxv]; and it is in the form 'all knowledge is conjectural' that the essence of his philosophy has been captured - and has influenced others.7
If, "all knowledge remains... conjectural" then that applies to your thoughts as well. And yet you expect that yours is correct in this instance? And not mere conjecture? As was pointed out you had to admit it was conjecture in your statements. Yet you lament the fact that you must point it out to others. Maybe your User Name should be Assumed Conjecture? At least this way other users would know that all your statements are conjecture and not knowledge, fact, or truth. But conjecture that might change in the future as you yourself gain more knowledge which you cannot currently see or understand today. Just a conjecture on my part.DATCG
March 9, 2018
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Barry on the OP:
The obvious purpose of the story is to refute the lame materialist assertion that we see all-too-many times in these pages that “morality comes from society.” The story exposes the vacuity of this position by demonstrating that if society determines morality, the Holocaust would have been moral if the Nazis had won the war and controlled societal discourse.
But doesn't that actually support the materialists' assertion? The story shows a situation where an act that the reader regards as grossly immoral is shown as being morally acceptable in another society.Bob O'H
March 9, 2018
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What is "good" and how can we determine what is good? Here's how good is defined in the Bible:
He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God? - Micah 6:8 NASB
What did the Creator do that was good? The creation in Genesis was described as good and very good. That Adam should be alone was described as not good, which was then addressed by the creation of Eve. In summary, the scriptures indicate that Justice, Kindness, Humility, Creativity, and Companionship are all good. So are the binary divisions in the universe which fundamentally define Information. Wisdom and Logic were intimately involved in creation, expressing Good. Freedom expressed by a Free Will was also part of Good. With Free Will we can choose between Life and Death. So, who can define good? The only choices are limited to free moral agents: the Creator, created sentient beings as individuals, or created sentient beings as a majority. Limited knowledge can lead to uninformed and incorrect judgments. A majority is often more informed than an individual, but a sentient being with complete knowledge and not bound by time is going to be the best choice to determine good. -QQuerius
March 8, 2018
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The killing of the Canaanites was the result of a military conquest which employed a drive them out, wipe them out strategy-- leave and live, or stay and die. Israelites attacked fortified citadels like Jericho and employed siege tactics which like modern aerial bombing and artillery does not discriminate between civilian and non-civilian, combatant and non-combatant. If you are in the target zone you are a target. Archaeological evidence shows that Jericho was burned. Fire was an ancient “weapon of mass destruction” that was used as part of siege warfare. It did not discriminate between combatants and civilian non-combatants any more than modern weapons of war do. Again, if you were in the target zone you were a target. When we look at modern warfare we do not typically refer to civilian noncombatant deaths (“collateral damage") as genocide. How then does military action, which took place 3000 years ago get arbitrarily defined today as genocide? It appears to be solely based on biased non-objective interpretation of the text. BTW most secular scholars the called conquest of Canaan texts which we find in the OT are non-historical. That suggests that anyone using the texts in a polemical argument is either ignorant or disingenuous. Which should be no surprise when it comes to internet trolls Notice that I am using Just War Theory here, not Divine Command Theory. The advantage is that I don’t have to use theology or assume the OT is divinely inspired etc. I don’t even have to mention God. I just need to interpret the text as another ANE document. If you believe that civilian non-combatants don’t die in war then you are totally ignorant of history.john_a_designer
March 8, 2018
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Hello Querius I believe God is good. I am not obligated to follow God's commands unless God is good. But if the definition of 'good' is 'commanded by God', this is circular regardless of what I believe.Quaesitor
March 8, 2018
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rvb8, Still hasn't addressed the question put to him about whether he considers providing the semi-starving part of the world with a rich source of nutritious protein as somehow immoral. He just seems to disappear or jump to another thread! LOL. -QQuerius
March 8, 2018
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