Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
From https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/live-not-by-lies/#comment-764161
So what is this Truth that everyone is so certain they know?
This and nearly all that follows is nonsense. My point is that if the Democrats won the electoral college fairly and squarely, they would be all over the evidence to prove it. But they were just the opposite. Why? Interesting omission is any reference to the actual claims made but more regurgitated irrelevancies.jerry
August 29, 2022
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This thread ended up discussing elections. Ballot auditing is still going on in Arizona for the 2020 presidential election. Here are the procedures for examining the ballots that are taking place as I write. https://www.cyberninjas.com/static/20210429155650/Wake-TSI-Counting-Floor-Policies.pdf Here are digital evidence handling policies https://www.cyberninjas.com/static/20210429172814/CyFIR-Digital-Evidence-Handling-Policies.pdf Here are cameras of the floor. https://azaudit.org/jerry
April 29, 2021
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Jerry, what amazes me is that there aren't videos of poll workers running in terror as residents of nearby graveyards march in to vote. KF PS: There is a story from my native city. A freshly minted policeman, patrolling near a major public cemetery saw a gentleman walking on the road just outside said resting place. The man was carrying a coffin. Suspicious, said shiny new officer challenged the man. Corpie, it gettin' crowded where me live so me movin' house. Said constable could not be seen for the cloud of smoke from burning shoe leather as he exited the vicinity at near escape velocity.kairosfocus
March 31, 2021
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I believe this is highly immoral
Controversial Georgia Law Requires Poll Workers To Check Voters For A Pulse Republican Governor Brian Kemp has signed into law sweeping overhauls to Georgia’s election law, including a provision requiring poll workers to check for a pulse before allowing voters to cast a ballot.
Disturbing the dead is not something we should do. Let them vote in peace. (Votem in pace) https://babylonbee.com/news/controversial-georgia-law-requires-poll-workers-to-check-voters-for-a-pulsejerry
March 30, 2021
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MNY, there are two relevant kinds of ignorance. Primary, where one simply has not been informed, or has not recognised. There is induced, secondary ignorance. That is, where one enshrines a crooked yardstick as standard for straight ['true" is the technical term], accurate and upright, then what is genuinely such can never conform to the crooked standard. In cases of serious indoctrination, there will be rejection of a naturally straight, upright plumb line. This last speaks to self-evident truth. KF PS: To establish existence of SETs, note that || + ||| --> V is such. Cluster 2 and 3 fingers then reunite, voila. Likewise, a SET can come from undeniability, eg E = error exists, to assert ~E is to say it is error to say E, oops. Likewise, Epictetus showed how core logic is a case of inescapable and unprovable first truth, as the attempt to prove requires the logic already, and the demand for proof hinges on that too. Indeed, this already shows the objector trying to gain rhetorical traction by inadvertently appealing to what he would dismiss, including that we have a duty to think straight. PPS: The key point is, there are first duties as SETs, where as duty is moral obligation, we have self evident truths of moral character. That runs up against relativist/ subjectivist/ emotivist cultural biases and widespread indoctrination on an unbridgeable gap between facts and values. However, we may recognise through observing how we argue, reason or quarrel: we find that invariably we appeal to duties at first level. This even obtains for would-be objectors. Then, try to compose an objection that does not so appeal . . . futile. Instead, let us recognise the first duties as a framework of built in law coeval with our humanity. Yes, that makes best sense on understanding our world and ourselves to be creatures of the inherently good, utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being we readily identify as God. If you have a visceral objection to that, tough; the flow of the logic is from observation of rational conduct to self evident first duties, not from God as issuing decrees arbitrarily. Indeed, here, the implicit invitation in the abductive step of what best explains, is to show that God is not a serious candidate necessary being [tough] or that as such a serious candidate, he is impossible of being as a square circle is [tougher, esp after the collapse of the logical form problem of evil]. Further, God as so understood is non-arbitrary, what God would implant as mind guided by conscience, would be shaped by his inherent goodness and utter wisdom. My real interest, is that I have noted a dangerous corruption of civil law and find here a sounder foundational framework, built in, rationally evident core law coeval with our humanity. That is, the natural law pivoting on justice, due balance of rights, freedoms and duties.kairosfocus
March 30, 2021
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People are a lot more stupid than you think they are, Kairosfocus. I post about subjectivity for years. Only the basic logic of it, which is about as complex as the logic of tic tac toe. Well within my reach. The internet is full of total morons who think they can measure emotions and personal character in the brain. So they have no feelings by which they identify someone's emotions and personal character, they try to measure and calculate it, as cold hard fact. No charity in judgement, no meanness either, just stonecold measurement and calculation. It's a total catastrophy, it's killing people's emotions. It has catastrophic consequences for individuals and society. Evolution theory with it's use of subjective terminology in an objectified sense, is shifting people's understanding of emotion and personal character towards it being understood as a matter of fact. With differential reproductive "success", the entire life cycle of organisms is explained using all kinds of subjective terminology, in regards to this "success". And ofcourse, subjectivity, emotion, personal opinion, are inherently creationist concepts, which creationism is banned. So subjectivity get's to be crushed, by evolution theory. Your ideas about right reasoning, they are not fundamental, they are very high goals. The reality is, the fundamentals of the concepts of opinion and fact, are broken in academics. And you are supposed to give attention to creationism / intelligent design ideas, on this intelligent design blog. You should give more consideration and priority to the creationist conceptual scheme, because it is based on the basic logic of creationism and intelligent design.mohammadnursyamsu
March 29, 2021
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MNY, do you realise that in objecting you appealed to said duties, yet again reflecting their inescapability, so self-evident character? Of course, it is "naive" to say we have duties to truth and justice, to reason, to prudence [including warrant for knowledge claims] etc. They are the guidelines by which we test what too often we do, and evaluate where it leads. As in the patently accelerating chaos. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2021
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VL, Jerry is right; especially as there is clear evidence of serious election manipulation. Including, corruption of poll workers through political activism. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2021
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I say that is profoundly immoral,
Apparently the report of not allowing water to be given out by the Georgia bill is fake news. It exempts poll workers. https://twitter.com/HolmesJosh/status/1376176111508393984jerry
March 28, 2021
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Viola Lee @ 1205, well put. Where I live, employers must give employees four consecutive hours off to vote. Seems like a simple solution.Steve Alten2
March 28, 2021
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The first duties of responsible reason, are naive. It's all about doing your best, and being good, and stuff like that. Notice the US constitution doesn't say anything about being good people. It is just neutral. It says freedom of speech. In fact the constitution goes out of it's way to support speech that is judged not to be good. See, that is not naive do-goodery, that is smart. Looking at the US constitution, the smart thing intellecutally is to support the concept of opinion, and the concept of fact. Not to say which fact is accurate, and what opinions are good, but to just define what an opinion is, and what a fact is. Then you get a constitution of the mind. Definitions: An opinion is formed by choice, and expresses what it is that makes a choice. A fact is obtained by evidence of a creation forcing to produce a 1 to 1 corresponding model of it in the mind. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / fact And with this constitution of the mind, each can produce their own personal opinions, and obtain their own facts, as they see fit.mohammadnursyamsu
March 28, 2021
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Oh, the slippery slope. Are there laws about not approaching people in line? I know there are laws about political advocacy in a polling area, so that would have to be monitored, just as it is now. Of course the real solution is cutting down on the need for lines: more polling places, staying open later, laws to allow people to take off work to vote, mail-in and advance voting, etc.Viola Lee
March 28, 2021
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I say that is profoundly immoral,
Why? It is not common for allow anyone to approach another while in line to vote. There is no law against the person having water or brining it with them or even eating a sandwich they brought. Next there will be concessions to sell all sorts of things to people in line to vote. The reason to prevent such a thing is to remove any attempt to influence people in line.jerry
March 28, 2021
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Reposted from the "Closing in on life" thread. 110 Viola LeeMarch 28, 2021 at 11:54 am KF closed all the old thread on duties to use right reason, etc, so I’ll post this here, as it relates to EDTA’s posts on unity vs diversity, and on the ongoing topics of moral standards and the decay of civilization.. So here’s a question: is it moral or immoral, by KF’s oft-cited “seven inescapable first duties of reason” (truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, to neighbour; fairness and justice) to make it against the law to give water to people standing in line to vote, as Georgia just did? I say that is profoundly immoral, and is an example of the ways our democracy and civilization are being threatened. Is this an issue upon which we can agree, or not? If not, can someone explain to me what possible justification the Georgia legislature could have for this?Viola Lee
March 28, 2021
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This thread is still open for comments. It contains discussion on right reason and several comments on homosexuality. I made a comment of Stoicism on Friday.jerry
March 28, 2021
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Rightfully a dead OP but here is something of relevance. Or is it? A lecture series on Stoicism. But it doesn't seem to mention Cicero or the natural law. https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/think-like-a-stoic-ancient-wisdom-for-today-s-world But seems aligned to the OP.
Think like a Stoic: Ancient Wisdom for Today's World Seneca, on Time Management. In one of the many letters he wrote, Seneca instructs his friend, Lucilius, on how to use time in the best way possible. He advised Lucilius: “Hold every hour in your grasp. Lay hold of to-day’s task, and you will not need to depend so much upon tomorrow’s. While we are postponing, life speeds by.” Epictetus, on Debating Others. Epictetus instructs us to respond to people with whom we disagree by not mocking or maligning them—or walking away. Instead, the Stoic patiently engages them and does their best to explain their own point of view, with the objective being dialogue, not dispute. Marcus Aurelius, on Assigning Labels. One way to make the world better is to be mindful of the labels we give ourselves. Marcus states, "When you have assumed these names—good, modest, truthful, rational, a man of equanimity, and magnanimous—take care that you do not change these names; and if you should lose them, quickly return to them." Epictetus, on Desiring Things. Stoics like Epictetus felt freedom was achieved not by satisfying desire but by eliminating it. "The more we value things outside our control,” he notes, “the less control we have. ... Either you're going to be depressed when your wish is not realized or foolishly pleased with yourself if it is, overjoyed for the wrong reasons."
I'm not trying to revive this thread. Anything but. Just posting something that may be of interest to a few.jerry
March 26, 2021
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MNY, I suspect, not all socialists would agree that socialism in general is applied naturalism in politics. Communism yes, though nowadays it gets weird. As for Nazism, it is actually of the left, just right of Communism, a sort of revision that figured out how to strike deals with power centres. As in, note Mussolini was a leading socialist who split over nationalism, and nazi is short for national socialist german workers/labour party. I saw labour used in contemporary translation. Oh yes, China seems to have reverted to Fascism, the Nationalists were actually fascists. On the whole I think the common political spectrum has passed sell-by date long since. The Speaker's Right as place of honour in days of monarchy as the honourable, with grades to his left/ degree of radicalism measured by seating otherwise is a patently dead framework. The notion that constitutional democracy is right wing, that populism not favoured by the duly fashionably lefty chattering classes is right wing extremism comparable to nazis is little more than agit prop, especially when, my riots with arson and mayhem good, your riots are insurrection and armed uprising. An alternative anchored on the long run of history and exposing the tendency to fall into lawless oligarchy is more analytically useful. KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2021
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I present a much simpler analysis of the problem. Socialism is the polticial application of materialism. Then from this root of materialism, there is right wing socialism, called nazism, and left wing socialism called communism. You can see this is true in China. China moved from left wing, to right wing socialism, over the last decades. Now they do genocides of Tibet, and Uygur. They have far reaching eugenics laws, which is also part of common culture. They have Han racism. Basically the communists have become more like nazi's, while remaining true to socialism, as it is rooted in materialism. Nazism is a materialistic idea, in the sense that according to nazism, personal character of people is a matter of biological fact. That idea is the main thing in nazism. Rather than being courteous, honest, charitable, in forming a judgement on what the personal character of someone is, the nazi's had an emotionless measuring and calculating attitude towards personal character, because they believed it to be a factual issue. These attitudes were the basis for the warmongering and genocides. So the problem with socialists is a very simple one. People who systematically make bad personal opinions, because they don't understand how to make a personal opinion. It is true, is it not? The socialists simply make bad personal opinions all the time, about any issue whatever. It is because socialists don't understand how to form a personal opinion, because materialism only validates facts. And materialism is at the root of socialism. The existence of a material thing, is a matter of fact. Personal opinion plays no role in materialism. The solution to defeating socialism, is simply to teach creationism. Because creationism validates both concepts of opinion and fact, each in their own right. The creationist conceptual scheme: 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / fact The concept of opinion is validated in category 1 of the creationist conceptual scheme, the concept of fact is validated in category number 2. http://www.creationwiki.org/Creationist_Philosophymohammadnursyamsu
March 19, 2021
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SA2, you have mis-stated the case and drawn chalk to cheese comparisons, especially as regards the ongoing holocaust of 800+ million of our living posterity. The reason why we take very strong measures on inherently criminal acts that cannot be eliminated is to restrain them to somewhat manageable levels. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2021
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SA
Much like gambling and abortion. Attempts were made to prohibit both but they were unenforceable. Therefore, the wise approach was taken to regulate them rather than continue the farce that they could be abolished.
I think your analogy to gambling makes sense, but I don’t think the comparison to abortion is appropriate. Gambling, like drinking, is highly regulated, with rules on where it can take place, the games and equipment that can be used, how old you have to be. I don’t think abortion is that highly regulated.count of crisco
March 19, 2021
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Kairosfocus “ You will note, I spoke to prohibition, which garnered enough support to become a US Constitutional Amendment, but which proved unenforceable so that the path of wisdom is regulation. “ Much like gambling and abortion. Attempts were made to prohibit both but they were unenforceable. Therefore, the wise approach was taken to regulate them rather than continue the farce that they could be abolished.Steve Alten2
March 19, 2021
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. JVL (the flawed double-standard remains in your reasoning, as it must)Upright BiPed
March 19, 2021
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And I like you, too, Jerry! :-)Viola Lee
March 19, 2021
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VL, once a self evident truth is present, that is in itself a correct answer. That which rejects such a SET is false. Thus, SETs help us to correct errors. Also, there may be substantially equivalent formulations. Next, one of the first duties happens to be prudence, which is by no means simplistic or the like, discernment, famously, grows through lifelong practice. In context, it also speaks to one of the thorniest challenges of civil law and civilisation: hardness of heart that forces regulatory compromises. You will note, I spoke to prohibition, which garnered enough support to become a US Constitutional Amendment, but which proved unenforceable so that the path of wisdom is regulation. There are cases where the time was such that for example slavery could be legally abolished, though it yet lurks in shadows. The simplistic picture you have tried to paint then rhetorically dismiss is a strawman fallacy. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2021
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KF writes, "VL, on plumb lines vs crooked yardsticks, it should be clear that we are speaking metaphorically. The point is, a plumb line is NATURALLY straight. ....The point is, there is an infinity of varieties of crookedness, no two of which will match. Any two plumb lines will agree, as they rely on inherent natural principles." Yes, KF, I called it a metaphor. I know what a metaphor is. I said exactly what you said: that it implies there is a correct answer and every other answer is wrong. That's why it's a revealing metaphor about the fundamental things I disagree with you about. Morality is not subject to the same kinds of "laws" as the mathematical and physical worlds are. Also, I have worked in construction and have used plumb bobs, levels, squares, and chalk lines many times in building things. I used to start my geometry class by bringing in my carpentry tools to illustrate beginning concepts and theorems. So I would suggest you lower your condescension level a bit.Viola Lee
March 19, 2021
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Jerry, The regular trolls are not interested in being honest. Difficult to have a real conversation with any of them. Andrewasauber
March 19, 2021
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Kf, I’ve said this several times on this thread. They don’t care about logic and evidence. If you repeat it a thousand times, it will have no effect. The “they” are a mixture of various malcontents who don’t really care about truth and others. So truth will have no effect. Find one that responds to a logical argument and thanks you. It is a rarity. Also you are the point person for a worldview they distaste. They can not defend their own but hate what you represent because they have committed to another contradictory one. They come here believing we are easy marks thinking we are ignorant and bigoted and find out it is themselves that are ignorant and bigoted. Their reaction is near uniform. It’s never, I didn’t think of it that way or I didn’t know that. It’s almost always a shift to another form of attack. They desperately want to find fault in our position. They can not afford to admit that we represent a superior position.jerry
March 19, 2021
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KF said:
Failure of civilisation is a fairly serious matter — we are still dealing with effects of the catastrophe from 1914 on. KF
That's the problem, though. Nothing that happens in this life is "a fairly serious matter," as far as I'm concerned. I guess that's why I don't take such "duties" to community seriously. If "this world" is the entire reach of the ramifications of my duties here, then in the context of my perspective - eternity - it's really not even worth the effort. I have much more far-reaching things to concern myself with.William J Murray
March 19, 2021
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WJM, the issue in context is best seen i/l/o the ship of state parable . . . ill advised mutiny leading to voyages of folly end in ruin. Athens is the capital example:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
Failure of civilisation is a fairly serious matter -- we are still dealing with effects of the catastrophe from 1914 on. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2021
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KF, Let's say (arguendo) that your entire argument is correct; we have these duties and they should be attended to in terms of our community context. Now, let's say I don't do my duties. So what? The idea of duties seems to me to include a penalty for not doing your duty, and/or a reward or payment for performing your duty. It seems you warn of the collapse of society and, generally, bad things happening as a result; but again, so what? Let's say the whole world turns into a chaotic mess of competing will-to-power lawless oligarchies (you know, what's basically existed since the dawn of human civilization) .. so what? That's how, by far, most people who ever lived on this planet have lived. "Bad stuff might more likely happen to me in life" isn't really much of a deterrent for me, and a society that operates by the principles you outline doesn't seem to me to be an attainable situation. I guess I don't understand why I should even bother with all of this seeing as I already see myself as having always lived in a form of "lawless oligarchy." "Contributing to the best society possible, even if it is an unattainable ideal" just seems like a waste of time for me. I have far more enjoyably things to do. So, is there a reward/penalty situation attached to these duties that are more significant than "bad stuff will more likely occur in your life?"William J Murray
March 19, 2021
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