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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
LT @ 289: Well, I hope you're not "done here" (290) because I enjoy the exchange. I agree that in the end my view may not match up to reality. You said:
But what actually galls me about these debates is the strong implication you given in the OP: that I am an atheist not because I really think it’s true but because I have ulterior motives. You can imagine how insulting it is to have someone who doesn’t know you say that you’re an atheist because you’re captive to hedonism, or a warped political view, or a dislike of authority, or egotism, or whatever. In all cases, the one thing never granted is that the atheist arrived at the conclusion through serious, sincere reflection.
You once again fall prey to an incorrect inference. Instead of assuming the worst about me, how about extending the courtesy of best interpretation? Just because I hold that atheists hold their views (ultimately) irrationally or out of a lack of information doesn't mean I think they have "ulterior motives" (at least that they are aware of), are not sincere, or have not employed "sincere self-reflection". I was an atheist for many years. I was entirely sincere, and I was very self-reflective. That doesn't mean my worldview was - in the end - rationally justifiable. If you feel like it, I really would like an answer to the question I posed and reiterated at the end of #288. I ask not because I think you have some "ulterior motive" for arguing against theism and for atheism; my unspoken assumption is that you (and others) argue for atheism and against theism because you think atheism is true and theism false. However, I'm not going to just assume that to be the case, which is why I ask, given the complex philosophical positions people often hold here.William J Murray
January 10, 2013
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Andre 285, thanks great link: Strange but True: When Half a Brain Is Better than a Whole One - May 2007 Excerpt: Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old. Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. ,,, Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. "One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely," Freeman says. Of course, the operation has its downside: "You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost," Freeman says. Remarkably, few other impacts are seen. ,,, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-wholebornagain77
January 10, 2013
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LT: I think you are seriously off base. In my own life, we can start with two direct experiences. at five, a Samuel type auditory encounter with God that twice over, I thought was my cousin acting as big sister cum aunt cum mother substitute calling me from the back to the front of the house. At this time I did not know the Samuel story. after the second run to the verandah, to be told, no I did not call you, my cousin told me the Samuel story and suggested I answer as Samuel was advised to. At that time, the THIRD time I heard my name called I did so. A Presence filled the room, and a message that my life was under a call was clearly, vividly impressed on my mind. This shaped me all my childhood. (Even, in the period when I was under conviction, knew exactly what was happening, knew I was fighting God, and did not want to surrender. I am not sure if I felt fear or was just being stubborn or believed that God would have to break me at his time of choosing.) The already described incident of miraculous guidance occurred when I was about nine, and saved my life. If you want more famous people, try C S Lewis' conversion, where his resistance to the Unwelcome was gradually broken. (And I did not know of this till I began to read Lewis at age 178 - 19.) Try also, Blaise Pascal's night of fire, Nov 23, 1654 -- which he kept secret, sewn into his jacket till his death:
"The Memorial": The year of grace 1654 Monday, 23 November, feast of Saint Clement, Pope and Martyr, and of others in the Martyrology. Eve of Saint Chrysogonus, Martyr and others. From about half past ten in the evening until half past midnight. Fire 'God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob,' not of philosophers and scholars. Certainty, certainty, heartfelt, joy, peace. God of Jesus Christ. God of Jesus Christ. My God and your God. 'Thy God shall be my God.' The world forgotten, and everything except God. He can only be found by the ways taught in the Gospels. Greatness of the human soul. 'O righteous Father, the world had not known thee, but I have known thee.' Joy, joy, joy, tears of joy. I have cut myself off from him. They have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters. 'My God wilt thou forsake me?' Let me not be cut off from him for ever! And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. I have cut myself off from him, shunned him, denied him, crucified him. Let me never be cut off from him! He can only be kept by the ways taught in the Gospel. Sweet and total renunciation. Total submission to Jesus Christ and my director. Everlasting joy in return for one day's effort on earth. I will not forget thy word. Amen.
There is much more out there, many lives turned around. KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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In re: bornagain77 @ 284, that's it -- I'm done here.Kantian Naturalist
January 10, 2013
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WJM@277, A few important points will sew up the discussion for me. First, my "desperation" comment was over-zealous; I mis-read your intent in asking it at the time you did. Next, I get (I think we all do or should) that atheism or theistic views may in fact be finally untenable. It's possible that in the last analysis, atheism fails to match reality. It's no less possible that theism fails to match reality. It's also possible that reality somehow is a strange hybrid that make both views partly correct. I personally accept that my conclusions may ultimately be incorrect, but right now I think they are correct and that there are good reasons for thinking so. But what actually galls me about these debates is the strong implication you given in the OP: that I am an atheist not because I really think it's true but because I have ulterior motives. You can imagine how insulting it is to have someone who doesn't know you say that you're an atheist because you're captive to hedonism, or a warped political view, or a dislike of authority, or egotism, or whatever. In all cases, the one thing never granted is that the atheist arrived at the conclusion through serious, sincere reflection. The companion to this view of atheists is that the atheist is ideology first and conclusion second. I know this point will being in the usual quotes from Lewontin and Philip Johnson, but I am talking about atheism and not any -ism in the performance of science. People, not atheists and not theists, do not escape ideology; we're all embroiled in on or more, and all the time. It helps to realize that one is enmeshed in ideology, but that hardly helps one transcend it. This is why I've always thought the usual Johnson criticism of the materialism coming first was banal: it merely recapitulates what Lewontin argues except implying a nefarious object to the science. One of my main objections to theistic views in general has not--I think, I might have missed it--been addressed: theism is unnecessary as an explanation of anything in reality. To my knowledge and mind, no one has made a positive case that God (the god of the OP) must be invoked in order to explain the origin and operation of X. Of course I am aware that ID targets the cell and DNA as sites where an ID might be required, yet even so, what would make the specific God of the OP the one and only source? In any even, I'm not yet convinced that ID arguments in the area of the cell hold up. Time will certainly tell on this, I imagine. Finally, to KF in #281: the two testimonies I was referring to--partly tongue-in-cheek--were Moses and PeterJ. I am of course aware that other folks in Torah and other writings are reported to speak and interact with God. The key factor to bear in mind, however, is that we are talking about first-hand testimonial of dealing with God "face-to-face." I specifically excluded a voice from a cloud or wrestling with angels or interacting with Jesus (a la Damascus) because first-hand knowledge was the initial parameter WJM offered in his China analogy. But Moses is said in Torah to have been the only one to see God's face (Deut. 34:10, "And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.") PeterJ also claims to have met God in person. I acknowledge what you say, KF: "the point is that here are so many cases of people's lives transformed in diverse ways due to encounters with God in one form or another, that the dismissal of all these, becomes a questioning of the credibility of the human mind as a means to know and understand or analyse the real world." Pleas note first that there has been no dismissal of these encounters, only a recognition that very few of these encounters have been encounters with God himself. Another recognition is that some cases have not been encounters with an agent of God. You may be surprised to learn that atheists too experience life transformations and such.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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Elvis4708 @ 287: I enjoyed reading your rebuttal. You are correct that I offered nothing new other than to aggregate the supportive evidence and argument (that was not self-contradictory or easily dispensed) into a civil case format ("more likely") instead of a criminal one ("beyond reasonable doubt"). I'm not going to rehash points and counter-points already made throughout this thread except for a couple of things. First, I will point out that your use of the term "perfect god" is as subjective and vague as your claims about how I have defined that god. Does absolute omnipotence (the ability to make a 4-sided triangle) make god "more perfect" than one inherently confined to logic, and if so, by what standard of "perfection"? How would one make an assessment of "more perfect" or "less perfect" without adhering to logical principles, then how would that assessment be valid when assessing a being where perfection is measured by it's capacity to void or contravene logic? Your argument against my definitional structure of god appears to me to be both self-serving (a convenient definition of "perfect") and inherently self-contradictory (a logic-based judgement of something assumed to be beyond the reach of logic). Also, please note your unsupportable use of a universal negative claim:
There are no scientific or else objective arguments in favor of divine providence, miracles and other sorts of divine intervention, particularly not benevolent intervention, in human affairs.
... is something I referred to in regards to intellectual dishonesty. Or, perhaps you can support this assertion without shifting the burden? (I'm assuming you meant to say "scientific or else objective evidence", because I'm not sure what a scientific or objective argument would be.) I would like to ask you the same question I asked LT, and have yet to receive a response. I would like to ask it of any atheist reading: Under your worldview/philosophy, what is the point of arguing against theism and for atheism? What ultimate purpose does it serve?William J Murray
January 10, 2013
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William J Murray - in his article “Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?”(at uncommondescent.com) - is of the opinion that there is evidence of god´s existence to an extent that it is more probable that the god exists than that the god does not exist. An atheist is therefore either ignorant of this evidence or boasting of an intellectually dishonest belief. In any case, atheists are put to blame. Only a theistic belief can be “intellectually honorable”. The validity of Murray´s conclusions depends on what sort of god he is talking about and the strength of his evidence as related to that god. Murray does not produce any new findings or ideas here. His listed evidence, seven items, is a mixture of well known personal, philosophical, theological and scientific arguments. It has been demonstrated many times before that these arguments are not sufficient to prove the existence of “the perfect god”(omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, infinitely merciful, infinitely righteous, free will). In fact, it can be shown that the perfect god cannot possibly exist, not even as a theoretical construct. Such a construct will always contain logical inconsistencies. Murray does not explicitly define “his” god as perfect but he is close to it. He talks about a god as “source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow”. Keywords here are “inasmuch as principles of logic allow”, an amendment and evasion which shows that Murray is aware of the logical problems involved with the perfect god concept. But he does not tell us what he means with his amendment so his definition of god has in fact no operational meaning. We simply don´t know what sort of god Murray is talking about. It is obviously a weaker god than the perfect god but weaker in what way and how much? The situation becomes even more confused when we ask ourselves how Murray´s god is related to the god of Abraham, the monotheistic god. My conclusion is that Murray´s conclusions about atheistic ignorance and dishonesty is totally without meaning. However, I am very fond of the “intellectually honorable belief”-concept, a concept I have used myself at several occasions. But my views are quite different than those of Murray and other monotheistic propagandists. Allow an outline; First of all we have to distinguish between the two fundamental aspects of divine presence; creation on the one hand, revelation and providence on the other. These capacities of the alleged divine are two quite different things and should therefore be treated separately in any logical analysis of divine presence. To be sure, “proving” divine creation is quite another thing than “proving” divine providence. Murray makes the assertion that “a worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it”. Murray of course believes in divine providence. Therefore, in my opinion, he becomes a victim of his own assertion. There are no scientific or else objective arguments in favor of divine providence, miracles and other sorts of divine intervention, particularly not benevolent intervention, in human affairs. Educated monotheists are aware of this. They have pondered over the théodicée-dilemma for thousands of years and their sharpest brains have still not been able to present a solution to it(this is not very strange as there is no solution!). But that is not all. Adding Darwin´s evolution theory(with no “Vatican exceptions”) and research results within scientific fields such as genetics and quantum mechanics should lead any logical observer to the conclusion that a stochastic, dynamic evolution model explains earthly life much better than any (deterministic, static) religious model of divine providence. Anecdotes, personal experiences and testimonies of divine presence now and then do not alter that conclusion. Such “evidence” is often triggered by religious belief and religious hysteria and should therefore not be referred to as “proofs” of divine existence. Hallucinations, wishful thoughts, planted rumors and gossips do not belong to a principal discussion of religion. In any case, divine providence is out of my worldview and should be out of anybody´s worldview unless in some sense objectively “confirmed”. Now creation; The so called “new atheist debate” is very much focused on divine vs natural creation and the mega question how matter and life can come into existence without a helping hand(word?) from supernatural beings. This is not the place to indulge into this debate. Suffice it to say that science not as yet has delivered a complete answer to that question. Therefore, an “intellectually honorable” standing is that it is possible that an external supernatural power has created our universe. But the mental distance from the acknowledgement of a possible creator to a belief in the monotheistic god is long, infinitely long. Just think about the small, geocentric universe - a sun and its seven planets - that is presented in the holy scriptures and the infinite universe with all its galaxies and solar systems we know to exist today. Why would a creator of this infinite universe only care about our solar system and the wellbeing of humans? Isn´t it a bit presumptuous to believe that? Anyway, acknowledging a supernatural creation of the universe does not make us understand the actor behind it. We do not even know if a supernatural creation, if ever carried out, was a conscious, purposeful act. Nor if it was intended to be an act of benevolence! Perhaps universe is the result of a devil´s act as proposed by the Gnostics? Now it should be evident to the reader that a theistic belief is not what I think of as an “intellectually honorable” belief. To me an honorable belief is basically atheistic, at most deistic(the creator is gone or does not care about humanity). This is sad in a way. It is indeed hard to accept life as a stochastic process with no divine purpose – to me and to many atheists. Taking “the leap of faith” and forget all about stochastic and evolutionary processes is of course no option for convinced atheists and deists. That would indeed be dishonest! Thank you!Elvis4708
January 10, 2013
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KF & BA: There are some things I don't bother debating with people, such as when they repeatedly deny what is obvious. I do, however, have a great appreciation for those that tirelessly address such denials. You never know when, or even why, but that at some point someone might seize upon such information for their benefit.William J Murray
January 10, 2013
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BA77 Awesome post as always to compliment that here you go; http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole Now the question? Does this mean that we have some sort of redundancy built-in to our brains and some sort of High Availability too? I must admit this makes the case for design even stronger than it already is because these kind of system only arise from planning them...... What can I say wow!Andre
January 10, 2013
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per post 270 ,,,KN states: ““I” am my body” Yet: ,,If ““I” am my body” as KN holds, then if half of a person’s brain were removed, then the ‘I’ in ““I” am my body” should be less of a “I” as they were before, but that is not the case. The whole ‘I’ in ““I” am my body” stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment: Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies – Dr. Ben Carson – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics’ Lives: Excerpt: “We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child’s personality and sense of humor,” Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: “Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications.” http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html Thus KN suffers empirical failure once again for his worldview! Behold KN’s forthcoming sophistry Box. per post 274 KN: "That hardly disproves anything I’ve been talking about. All it shows is that certain very simplistic and crude hypotheses about cognitive localization are false.",,, HMMM,,,, BA77: And that would be your simplistic and crude ““I” am my body” hypothesis that was shown to be false by the empirical evidence. Just because it disagrees with your preferred worldview does not matter one iota! You made a claim, the claim was shown to be bunk, deal with it! BA77: As well, Thanks KN for being right on target with the 'forthcoming sophistry' especially towards Box! Tis a mighty fine word salad you toss indeed . :) What dressing do you use Denialism or the more spicy Delusionalismbornagain77
January 10, 2013
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Mung: let's talk! (I particularly have this in mind.) KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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PJ: I am one of God's draftees, not a volunteer! (Believe it or not, I fought God's known call on my life, through an extended period of being "under conviction," until the night when I was beaten in the battle of wills and surrendered. That's another story for another day, but it should count as another personal encounter with God in my life: my private battle of wills with God. I lost, He won, and so I won. [And, I am not a Calvinist!]) Looking at your announcement and the reactions, it is clear that there is a presumption of scientism at work, and a tendency to resort to snide dismissals. Much as just happened when I had the temerity to post the West video on C S Lewis. I see too that the people involved do not understand the underlying bigotry involved in Dawkins' sneer about "ignorant, stupid, insane (or, wicked . . .)". A pity. Let me clip a particularly significant case:
we treat people who hear voices and claim to talk with gods in one of two ways depending on the amount they shout in the streets. Mr [PJ] is still restricting himself to rambling in the newspaper so we should not try and talk him out of it. Suffice to say that his fellow believers until recently claimed the earth was only a few thousand years old and that dianasors where a test of faith. As usual religion has been playing catch up to science and reason.
Oh, dear: 1 --> Apparently, this interlocutor has not understood the biggest gap of all in evolutionary materialist views on origins of the minded embodied creatures that we represent, i.e where does that "I" that has a unified, personal, conscious, continuing experience come from, where is it grounded, and how can we have reasonable confidence in the veridicality of our perceptions. 2 --> The problem, in a nutshell, is not hearing disembodied voices in the head or seeing spirits, it is hearing and seeing and perceiving consciously and at all being able to have a conversation with the other. 3 --> in short, I here allude to the hard problem of consciousness (where, we must never forget, consciousness is our first fact, the fact through which we perceive all other facts -- rendering this the first problem of all). As Wikipedia once had it aptly summed up:
"The term hard problem of consciousness, coined by David Chalmers[1], refers to the "hard problem" of explaining why we have qualitative phenomenal experiences."
4 --> For, as Ned Block observes in an article for The Encyclopedia of Cognitive Science:
The Hard Problem of consciousness is how to explain a state of consciousness in terms of its neurological basis . . . . There are many perspectives on the Hard Problem but I will mention only the four that comport with a naturalistic framework . . . . Eliminativism . . . . Philosophical Reductionism or Deflationism . . . . Phenomenal Realism, or Inflationism . . . . Dualistic Naturalism.
5 --> As my always linked note continues:
Let us therefore note how, in Block's -- clearly influential -- formulation, the materialistic-naturalistic perspective is imposed, right from the outset, via the presented definition of the problem (and the underlying assumed definition of "Science"): explain[ing] a state of consciousness in terms of its neurological basis. So, any explanation that does not set out to in effect account for consciousness on the basis of neurons and their electrochemistry or the like is excluded from the outset. AKA, begging the question. Block then sets out to look at four “naturalistic” alternatives: [1] the view that “consciousness as understood above simply does not exist,” [2] allowing that “consciousness exists, but they ‘deflate’ this commitment—again on philosophical grounds—taking it to amount to less than meets the eye,” [3] the view that in effect consciousness emerges from but is not reducible to neurological activity [a comparison is made to how heat as a concept may be explained as tracing physically to thermal agitation of molecules, but is conceptually different], [4] views that “standard materialism is false but that there are naturalistic alternatives to Cartesian dualism such as pan-psychism." [This last is explained here.] But, what is never seriously on the table is the key issue that the design inference points to: we know, immemorial, that there are three major causal factors, chance, necessity, intelligence. Necessity is associated with mechanical regularities [e.g. how heavy objects fall and come to rest on a table], so is not associated with highly contingent outcomes. Contingency [e.g. which face of a die, having fallen to and settled on a table is uppermost] traces to chance or agency. When we have functionally specified, complex information, we have a situation that in observation and on grounds of inadequacy of required search resources, reliably traces to intelligence, not chance. It is thus -- vast erudition of many discussions by scholars of the highest calibre notwithstanding -- utterly unsurprising to see that the whole evolutionary materialistic project to "explain" consciousness grinds to a halt in the face of self referential incoherence and failure to adequately reckon with the radical differences between the properties of mind and matter. So, options 1 and 2 fall apart directly, and 3 and 4 boil down to defiantly flying the materialistic flag and passing out promissory notes in the teeth of consistent explanatory failure. But persistent explanatory failure is not just a matter to be fobbed off with a promissory note or two on future deliverances of “Science” and/or alternative materialistic explanations, it is inherent in the materialistic imposed -- historically and philosophically suspect -- redefinition of what science is and tries to do. For, the exclusion of intelligence from explanation when it is inconvenient to the evolutionary materialist view, ends up in question-begging, and is in violation of basic facts on the history of science. It is also philosophically ill-founded, and is self referentially incoherent; as has been shown above. That is -- as the case of Sir Francis Crick vividly illustrates -- such evolutionary materialist "explanations" cannot even coherently explain the intellectual works of the researchers themselves. For, we know that complex, functionally organised information such as apparent messages, reliably trace to mind, and that mind has capabilities that do not credibly trace to chance + necessity acting on matter + energy. In short, we have strong, empirically based reason to see that once mind is viewed through the characteristics of its traces, we are dealing with something that strongly points beyond the world of matter + energy acted on by forces tracing to chance + necessity only.
6 --> THAT is how revolutionary the design perspective is. 7 --> And BTW, there are a few words that should be pondered on overconfident reconstructions of the remote, unobserved past as are so often passed off as though they were facts on the level of the roundness of the easrth (which BTW was known from about 300 BC and which was accepted by Columbus' objectors, their issue was that Columbus' estimate for the circumference was far too low and they were right . . . ). Let me cite the voice out of the storm in Job 38, as a caution to those who would indulge in overconfident scientism at this point:
Job 38:1 . . . the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? . . .
8 --> In short, a little due humility in the face of the inescapable limitations of origins science, would be appropriate. Let me clip the onward IOSE remarks on that (noting the unit on cosmology and timelines here on too):
When we turn to origins sciences, as already noted in brief, we can see another problem. For, just as Job 38:2 – 4 points out, we were not “there” to see the facts directly. Nor, do we have generally accepted record form those who indisputably were there. Plainly, this is a very good and deep challenge to the project of origins science. The best answer we can give is that: (i) once we can establish a knowledge of empirically reliable causal patterns and their traces in the present, (ii) where also we can observe traces of the past in the present, and (iii) where finally we can suggest a credible set of initial circumstances and change processes based on known causal patterns that would give rise to sufficiently similar traces, ____________________________________________ (iv) then, we may scientifically infer on best explanation, that the suggested circumstances and dynamics are a credible — albeit inevitably provisional — origins narrative. One thing that we have no right to do, is to claim that such an inferential reconstruction is a fact beyond reasonable dispute or doubt. (Sadly, it is necessary to note this, as there is a tendency to over-claim the factual basis for theories of origins.) As a result, we do not independently and directly know the indisputably true facts or even dates for what happened in the remote past. So also, while we can build models that reconstruct what we may think the past was more or less like, we cannot make direct, theory-independent observations that give us indisputable access to the true facts of the remote past. Therefore, we cannot scientifically know or explain the true facts on our origins beyond reasonable dispute or possibility of correction.
9 --> Methinks, a little humility in light of a sounder grasp of the epistemological limitations of science on origins, would be in order. (And, this also underscores how often, how badly we have been taught concerning the methods, strengths and limitations of science, in school and in popular venues, or even in college. Let us not ever forget that scientism is a substitute religion, a means of inducing gullibility and a means therefore to improper assumption of undue influence and power. Which is what the video on Lewis here that so stirred the ire of some objectors that there was a resort to improper personal attacks, speaks of.) KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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LT: We have just two testimonies of encountering God in person? [Are you speaking of Saul of Tarsus and Pascal? If so, you are leaving off, just off the bat: Peter, James and John, Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Moshe, Abraham and Elijah, simply from the foundational record behind the Judaeo-Christian view. All of these are on record in the most easily accessible book from classical times, which happens to be foundational to our civilisation.) Where did you get that idea, please explain? Just for one more instance, are you aware of the movement among Muslim peoples based on visionary encounters with Jesus of Nazareth? Are you aware of the many people in our own civilisation and even this day and age who have had Damascus road experiences or Samuel-type experiences or encounters with God through miracles of deliverance, guidance, healing, revelation, confrontation leading to change of life and more, much more? Just in this thread, PJ has had a Damascus Road encounter, and I have had a Samuel experience. I am also alive because of a miracle of guidance that led us to the doctor who saved my life, in answer to my mom's tear-stained prayer of surrender of my life to God after she reached breaking point, having nursed me through yet another desperate night. (There was another night they tell me of, of rushing me to hospital to be treated as an emergency, that I have no recall of whatsoever; I must have been too far gone, maybe status asthmaticus.) I should add, from my grad student days, the account of one of my friends, daughter of a pentecostal bishop and a Jamaica Scholar who was a clinical medical student, and all around lovely young lady of the first rank. Ovarian cysts that were suddenly discovered late, and were suspected to be bad news indeed, type-C bad, bad news. Prayer by here home church, and by friends. By the time that the first exploratory interventions were to be taken vanished. There are so many cases of healings in response to prayer in my homeland that when I had a resurgence of asthma due to the kicking-up of our friend to the south here and the ash, that when I told a medical doc during a workplace checkup that my asthma had last surged due to this and came back under control when I was called out by name for prayer at my second home church in Barbados (by my former Sunday school teachers) -- I had not responded to the call for sick people to come forward for prayer -- she responded that they hear that sort of thing all the time, and it is not surprising news that this sort of healing happens. We could go on and on, but the point is that here are so many cases of people's lives transformed in diverse ways due to encounters with God in one form or another, that the dismissal of all these, becomes a questioning of the credibility of the human mind as a means to know and understand or analyse the real world. But then, that is the same issue that simply comes up from the evolutionary materialist account of the origin of mind, as was already pointed to above, at was it 146? [yes.] KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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You may need to scroll up to read the article when opening link. PJPeterJ
January 10, 2013
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Kf, Thank you for sharing your testimony and for standing with me. It's very much appreciated as I'm sure it lays you open to attack, as I've seen happen on many occassions to those who contribute to the running of this forum when they take this stance. Bless you. KRock, Thank you for your interest. I'm fairly sure that you can download a Kindle App for your computer, and therefore you could recieve it that way. Failing that the only other way would be to contact my local Christian Bookstore. I will provide a link below. http://www.ttcb.org.uk/?page_id=100 Thanks again. Ps. Only last week i wrote a letter to my local paper (The Shetland Times) after a barrage, it seemed , of very anti-Christian articles in various local media outlets. The letter itslef has now been produced on their website and it has of course stirred up many people. I will post a link here. Well ... it's good for a laugh if nothing else. http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/01/04/where-is-the-evidence-peter-jamieson#commentsPeterJ
January 10, 2013
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Graham 2 Cause and effect.... Take a row of domino's that you push over... what is greater? The cause (pushing the domino's over) or the effect? (falling over of the domino's) Give it some thought and lets chat about it!Andre
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner said:
I hope my points have provoked you to take the atheist position and the body of atheist philosophy more seriously than before.
You mean, more seriously than when I was an atheist, for many years, and argued that case vigorously? Just because I disagree with you, and have a different view of the ultimate rationality of the atheistic position, doesn't mean I don't take it seriously; I take it very seriously.
Sorry, but it seems like you are asking the question out of desperation.
I asked asked the question because it interests me as to why people (notably, atheistic materialists) argue against theism - I wasn't trying to keep you from arguing against it out of concern for the condition of my argument. I'm satisfied with the current state of our particular debate, and I also found it quite enjoyable.William J Murray
January 9, 2013
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WJM 258: "rationale surrounding it and its importance in Christian philosophy/doctrine." - My point is that the historical fulfillment of precise functional complex information given prior to the taking place of that information is NOT PHILOSOPHY and it goes will beyond mathematical probability - statistical computations. As far as trying to see God or have an "encounter" like PeterJ portents which is highly subjective and speculative not to mention rare in human experiences thus doubtful in the conclusions drawn on many levels and not such good advise to LarTanner as a means to encounter or see God, the precision of fulfilled pre-stated information provides a true rational basis for Theism. The natural information within the material world can point to, but can not do what can (not necessarily though - a different subject re. revelation) happen via prophecy of the unique nature and detail of pre-Christ information fulfilled to the letter. I don't have much hope my point will be taken anyway for revealed reasons, but I felt moved to for some strange non rational reason (the natural man perceives the things of the Spirit" etc, but there goes hope for ya... remember all you Christians - its the Word that is effective, NOT all these natural arguments from nature as they just leave those so inclined "without excuse."alan
January 9, 2013
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WJM 258: "rationale surrounding it and its importance in Christian philosophy/doctrine." My point is that the historical fulfillment of precise functional complex information given prior to the taking place of that information is NOT PHILOSOPHY and it goes will beyond mathematical probability - statistical computations. As far as trying to see God or have an "encounter" like PeterJ portents which is highly subjective and speculative not to mention rare in human experiences thus doubtful in the conclusions drawn on many levels and not such good advise to LarTanner as a means to encounter or see God, the precision of fulfilled pre-stated information provides a true rational basis for Theism. The natural information within the material world can point to, but can not do what can (not necessarily though - a different subject re. revelation) happen via prophecy of the unique nature and detail of pre-Christ information fulfilled to the letter. I don't have much hope my point will be taken anyway for revealed reasons, but I felt moved to for some strange non rational reason (the natural man perceives the things of the Spirit" etc, but there goes hope for ya... remember all you Christians - its the Word that is effective, NOT all these natural arguments from nature as they just leave those so inclined "without excuse."alan
January 9, 2013
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,If ““I” am my body” as KN holds, then if half of a person’s brain were removed, then the ‘I’ in ““I” am my body” should be less of a “I” as they were before, but that is not the case. The whole ‘I’ in ““I” am my body” stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment.
That hardly disproves anything I've been talking about. All it shows is that certain very simplistic and crude hypotheses about cognitive localization are false.
You are the most ‘spiritual’ naturalist I have ever encountered. You are demanding a very special role for consciousness despite the narrow boundaries of physicalism. In this internal struggle you are very persistent and at the same time it is not always understandable how this ambition will fit.
I'm interested in exploring philosophical options that are not confined by the matter/mind dichotomy. I believe that this dichotomy inherits all the problems of Manichaeanism. If one begins with this dichotomy in place at the fundamental level, then one is limited to the following options: materialism/physicalism, idealism/phenomenalism, and dualism. I don't believe that any of those views are ultimately tenable, and part of the reason why is because they presuppose an untenable dichotomy between mind and matter. I believe that we need a much richer set of basic concepts to start off with in order to build an adequate metaphysical system.
Maybe one day you will decide to release yourself from the shackles of naturalism. Maybe that’s why you feel drawn to people of faith.
Maybe! :)Kantian Naturalist
January 9, 2013
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Well LT, let's say that we take the atheistic position and the Theistic position as equiprobable. Given that epistemological failure is 100% certain in the atheistic/materialistic worldview yet finding 100% certainty is not possible in the atheistic worldview, then I am 100% certain the Theistic worldview is correct and the Atheistic worldview is incorrect. Thanks for playing probabilities with me.bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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Following up on my last comment before I had back to work for the rest of the evening. Assume we imagine God's existence or non-existence is equiprobable: Given that we have but two testimonials out of all humanity that say "I have actually encountered God in person," is the existence of God more or less likely than our baseline? Less likely, I say. Plus, given that we have no unambiguous first-hand testimonials from God himself saying "I exist" (Torah included), is the existence of God more or less likely than our baseline? Less likely, again. Everything else is a footnote. Thank you for the discussion. I hope my points have provoked you to take the atheist position and the body of atheist philosophy more seriously than before.LarTanner
January 9, 2013
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@Kantian Naturalist - 268 You are the most 'spiritual' naturalist I have ever encountered. You are demanding a very special role for consciousness despite the narrow boundaries of physicalism. In this internal struggle you are very persistent and at the same time it is not always understandable how this ambition will fit. Maybe one day you will decide to release yourself from the shackles of naturalism. Maybe that's why you feel drawn to people of faith.Box
January 9, 2013
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KN states:
"“I” am my body"
Yet: ,,If "“I” am my body" as KN holds, then if half of a person's brain were removed, then the 'I' in "“I” am my body" should be less of a "I" as they were before, but that is not the case. The whole 'I’ in "“I” am my body" stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment:
Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies – Dr. Ben Carson – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics’ Lives: Excerpt: “We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child’s personality and sense of humor,” Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: “Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications.” http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html
Thus KN suffers empirical failure once again for his worldview! Behold KN's forthcoming sophistry Box :)bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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kairosfocus:
F/N: Blackwell Companion to nat theol, at Amazon, paper — hard cover is over US$ 200 [I guess, mostly for libraries . . . I could buy the soft cover and get it hard bound for a lot less [or could even pull my volume on the topic of book binding and try my hand . . . ])
If you can pull my email address from my profile, or get someone to do it for you, and send me an email with your mailing address I'll send you a copy. Paperback. You'll have to get it hard-bound yourself. :)Mung
January 9, 2013
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In re: Box @ 267
Your ideas are unexpected. What is the location of your “I”?
I am wherever my body is. Right now I am seated at my desk in my apartment. I don't think of "the I" as being somewhere inside my body; "I" am my body, as a living thing. I don't make any claims for originality, really. My ideas are mostly based on Merleau-Ponty and Wilfrid Sellars. My main contribution is that no one has tried to synthesize the ideas of those two philosophers. Among post-Sellarsian philosophers, I've been influenced in approximately equal measure by Churchland and Brandom.
You seem to be arguing for agency (“I”) at the level of the ‘embodied person’ as a whole. Or do I get you wrong?
That's exactly what I'm arguing for! :)Kantian Naturalist
January 9, 2013
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@Kantian Naturalist
Kantian Naturalist: “I did not claim that we are our brains, and I consider it quite foolish to identify oneself with one’s brain. As I emphasized at 166, I qua perceiving, acting, and thinking being am an embodied person, a rational animal, not a brain.”
Your ideas are unexpected. What is the location of your “I”?
Kantian Naturalist: “I could not think if I did not have a brain, but I could not digest good if I did not have a stomach. Brains don’t think; it is animals who think, (…)”
You seem to be arguing for agency (“I”) at the level of the ‘embodied person’ as a whole. Or do I get you wrong?Box
January 9, 2013
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@PeterJ I'm in Canada and do not currently own a Kindle device, how else can I obtain a copy of your book? Thanks KKRock
January 9, 2013
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PJ: I add, when my mom reached desperation and I was at death's door due to childhood asthma, a miracle of guidance led her tot he doctor who saved my life. A doctor we probably would never have heard of otherwise. Looking back across 40 years, that probably was pivotal in my mom's conversion and my own -- that reaffirmed my sense that God had a hand on my life which dated to when I was 5 or so and had a Samuel as a child type experience. And that is just the beginning. I am aware that there are many skeptical types who will dismiss any and all such testimonies, but to do so in aggregate they are sawing off the branch on which we must all sit. And, at this stage in cultures like my own, where there is enough openness to discuss such and a culture in which it is realised that a LOT of people have had such experiences and have been healed (which most doctors accept as happening today), delivered from bondages of all sorts and so forth, skeptical dismissals sound decidedly hollow. For me, ID is NOT about proving God is real, that is something I have known since I was 5, and really never doubted before. KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2013
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WJM@257
I would guess the same number of people that have had a face-to face interaction with China; zero. Even when you’re in China, that you’re actually in China can only be inferred from your understanding of what it would be like. It’s not like China can answer questions. People experience god, I suggest, in much the same way they experience China. Or in much the same way they experience love. Or color. Or joy. Or logic. Or morality.
Are you trying to move the goalposts? I asked a very simple, straightforward question about direct, first-hand experience with God himself. You've answered zero, no one has seen God (although the Torah says that Moses saw God in person, and there are some other scriptural vagaries that could be brought in). We agree! Now, for a refresher, here's what you said about China in #239:
I’ve never been to China. I will likely never go to China. I consider the aggregate amount of testimony of people that have been there, mapmakers, and the overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence available that support a conclusion that China exists to be sufficient for a finding of “China more likely exists than not” without having to examine any individual testimony or grill any individual about their supposed “China experience” – even if many different people describe China in very different terms.
Here, you accept having set foot in China as acceptable first-hand experience and evidence of there being such a place. There's no waffling around "experiencing" China as if it were love or a ham sandwich. So, we can say that between the two of us, the total number of testimony that says "I've seen and met God" amounts to Moses and PeterJ in #259. To add insult to injury, you're creating a new category of "god-like" beings. That category is undefined in the OP, and it seems like a separate question to rationally accept or reject the existence of god-like beings. Surely, onlookers see all the mental and emotional gymnastics involved in holding on to a God concept that actually seems to have very, very little testimonial support. Yet you maintain that atheism is rationally untenable. Tell me, are all the people who have not met God face-to-face to be counted as evidence against the being existing? Finally, you ask:
why work so hard trying to undermine the evidence for god? From your belief system point of view, what’s the point?
Sorry, but it seems like you are asking the question out of desperation. I'm not actually working so hard at it. You said that atheism was rationally untenable, I joined the discussion to take the opposing view. From my point of view, the point of the discussion is rooting around the details. Kairosfocus hates when I want to look at details and ask questions. He says over and again that I'm playing word games and seeking to distract. But I find the details most fascinating of all. Perhaps that's why I gravitated to textual scholarship in early medieval texts: the most boring part of the most boring part of scholarship. I like the details, and I find very often that when we look at the details, what we find is they usually don't allow the kinds of grand inferences that people like to make. They sit there, ugly and brutish, waiting for someone to spin a magical, mystical narrative from them.LarTanner
January 9, 2013
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