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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
KN, all of your incoherent nonsense aside, I have a very specific 'scientific' problem for you, using any naturalistic metaphysics that you want as a starting presupposition, please coherently explain, using empirical evidence, quantum mechanics and general relativity, the centrality we witness for ourselves within the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR): Planck satellite unveils the Universe -- now and then (w/ Video showing the mapping of the 'sphere' of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation with the satellite) - 2010 http://phys.org/news197534140.html#nRlv Picture of CMBR https://webspace.utexas.edu/reyesr/SolarSystem/cmbr.jpg The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the universe in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit Of somewhat related note: In this following video, Dr. Richards and Dr. Gonzalez reveal that the universe is ‘suspiciously set up’ for scientific discovery: Privileged Planet – Observability/Measurably Correlation – Gonzalez and Richards – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5424431 The very conditions that make Earth hospitable to intelligent life also make it well suited to viewing and analyzing the universe as a whole. - Jay Richards Extreme Fine Tuning of Light, and Atmosphere, for Life and Scientific Discovery - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7715887/ Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water - graphs http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ Michael Denton: Remarkable Coincidences in Photosynthesis - podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/09/michael_denton_remarkable_coin.html This following videos are in the same line of thought as the preceding videos: We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History – Hugh Ross – video http://vimeo.com/31940671 Hugh Ross - The Anthropic Principle and Anthropic Inequality - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8494065bornagain77
January 14, 2013
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I managed to find a nice little article, "The Metaphysics of Quantum Mechanics" by Craig Callender. (He's a professor of philosophy of physics at UCSD. I'd link to his site, but it seems to be down at the moment.) Anywhere, here's the last paragraph of his article:
Interestingly, the many interpretations of quantum mechanics illustrate why the line between metaphysics and physics is sometimes blurry. Given current technology, there is no way to experimentally decide between, say, a Wignerian collapse theory ("human consciousness causes collapse") and one or more versions of GRW ("reaching a threshold of particle number in the system makes collapse likely"). But in principle these theories do issue different predictions for some observables. In this sense, the metaphysics of today may be the physics of tomorrow. In addition, even before any crucial experiment is performed—and it is not clear that there ever will be such between certain pairs of interpretations—we see that science can have a real bearing on these metaphysical disputes. Scientists value more than good predictions. They also prize simplicity, unification, consilience and other theoretical virtues. Even if there is no test between two given interpretations, there may be good reasons to adopt one over another. One interpretation may possess a symmetry others do not, resolve a problem others cannot, or uniquely extend to a promising new theory (say, some version of quantum gravity).
Kantian Naturalist
January 14, 2013
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Do you actually have specific objections to my "word salad"? Or is it just incoherent nonsense to you? From what I can tell, you haven't presented anything that is "clear unambiguous evidence for mind preceding material reality in quantum mechanics". What's you've presented is strongly indicative of the claim that quantum mechanics is committed to non-local realism, i.e. we have to give up on locality, and we have to give up on mere instrumentalist interpretations of quantum mechanics. I can see how that might lend some support to an emanationist metaphysics, but frankly, it looks pretty suggestive to me, and hardly the smoking gun you make it out to be. I don't think we have any idea what the metaphysics of quantum mechanics are really going to turn out to be. I think the theory itself is in too much turmoil for there to really be much agreement on what the theory commits us, metaphysically speaking.Kantian Naturalist
January 14, 2013
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and: On the reality of the quantum state - Matthew F. Pusey, Jonathan Barrett & Terry Rudolph - May 2012 Abstract: Quantum states are the key mathematical objects in quantum theory. It is therefore surprising that physicists have been unable to agree on what a quantum state truly represents. One possibility is that a pure quantum state corresponds directly to reality. However, there is a long history of suggestions that a quantum state (even a pure state) represents only knowledge or information about some aspect of reality. Here we show that any model in which a quantum state represents mere information about an underlying physical state of the system, and in which systems that are prepared independently have independent physical states, must make predictions that contradict those of quantum theory. http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys2309.htmlbornagain77
January 14, 2013
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also in response to Ghirardi–Rimini–Weber theory: Quantum Theory's 'Wavefunction' Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American - November 2011 Excerpt: Action at a distance occurs when pairs of quantum particles interact in such a way that they become entangled. But the new paper, by a trio of physicists led by Matthew Pusey at Imperial College London, presents a theorem showing that if a quantum wavefunction were purely a statistical tool, then even quantum states that are unconnected across space and time would be able to communicate with each other. As that seems very unlikely to be true, the researchers conclude that the wavefunction must be physically real after all.,,, "This strips away obscurity and shows you can't have an interpretation of a quantum state as probabilistic," he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunctionbornagain77
January 14, 2013
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notes: Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free will assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html Particle and Wave-Like Behavior of Light Measured Simultaneously (Nov. 1, 2012) Excerpt: Dr Peruzzo, Research Fellow at the Centre for Quantum Photonics, said: "The measurement apparatus detected strong nonlocality, which certified that the photon behaved simultaneously as a wave and a particle in our experiment. This represents a strong refutation of models in which the photon is either a wave or a particle." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121101141107.htmbornagain77
January 14, 2013
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KN, your word salad response to the clear evidence facing you in quantum mechanics is much like your word salad response to the evidence facing you in biology. We have clear unambiguous evidence for mind preceding material reality in quantum mechanics, and you have no coherent mechanism to propose to deal with it, just as you have no coherent mechanism to deal with the functional information we find in life (since you reject both reductive materialism and mind),,, Don't you think tis time for you to wake up and smell the coffee instead of playing such shallow self deceptive head games??? Chris Tomlin - Awake My Soul (with Lecrae) [Official Lyric Video] http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=0902E1NUbornagain77
January 14, 2013
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KN, Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htmbornagain77
January 14, 2013
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In re: bornagain77 @ 457, the argument seem valid but I do not think it is sound, since I take issue with the first premise. That is, I don't see why consciousness must be epiphenomenal if it is not more fundamental than matter. Why couldn't consciousness be both an emergent phenomenon and causally efficacious? That alternative would need to be examined and rejected in order to establish the dichotomy assumed in the first premise. Moreover, it's really not clear to me that "consciousness first" interpretations of quantum mechanics is really better, empirically or metaphysically, than interpretations that do not give consciousness priority. There are, after all, "no collapse" interpretations (the wave-function does not collapse) as well as interpretations where the collapse is not explained in terms of consciousness (e.g. Ghirardi–Rimini–Weber theory). Apart from specific issues in interpretations of quantum mechanics, "consciousness first" interpretations tend to be grounded in an instrumentalist conception of scientific theories, and I find that instrumentalism has pretty serious problems as a view of scientific theories generally, as explored quite thoroughly by the discussions about scientific realism. In re: StephenB 464, since I already answered that exact question earlier, I leave it to you to ask me further questions based on my previous response.Kantian Naturalist
January 14, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist
But that doesn’t require that the fundamental structure of reality itself conforms to those principles [right reason] or that “mind” exist prior to “matter”.”
So, for you, the fundamental structure of reality doesn't conform to the Laws of Identity and Causality? Are you now saying that Jupiter can, indeed, exist and not exist at the same time?StephenB
January 13, 2013
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What Does The World Look Like Without Christianity? - Larry Taunton - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs_Enln-E2A Larry Taunton - The Grace Effect - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZxu7wJYOcc The Grace Effect - book http://www.amazon.com/Grace-Effect-Reverse-Corruption-Unbelief/dp/1595554408 From Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ cites many examples. Here are just a few: 1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human lifebornagain77
January 13, 2013
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PS: Watch the short vid just above please and address the utilitarian challenge on 90% oppressing 10% to gain benefits [and which BTW is also directly relevant to the game of blaming "the 1%" and seeking to impose ever increasingly disproportionate burdens, which can easily end up driving out especially small scale innovative entrepreneurship to the ultimate harm of all but few will see that in time to avert it, cf my comment on a historical case here], then ponder the problem of democracy coming down to three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch.kairosfocus
January 13, 2013
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E: Please LOOK at what you did above, and ask you what makes you itch to react like that. Especially, to someone who long since took time to address the issue of the sins of Christendom [remember, my ancestors were oppressed due to one of the major, longstanding sins of humanity, reformed through the decades long work of men who (having gone through Christian revival and being in a position where for the first time there was a decent shot to use parliament to do this) stood up, Bible in hand to say --- this is wrong, starting with the trade], and to highlight that the pivotal issue is that we all face being finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill willed. That looks extraordinarily like, you have a loaded, prejudicial stereotype that has been indoctrinated into you and triggers a program to issue a put-down whenever the "threat" of right wing creationist theocracy -- as you seem to have been programmed to project -- seems to appear before you. If I had heard from you a balanced appraisal that for instance would have acknowledged the significance of the specifically Christian contribution to the rise of liberty and democratic self-government under God, I would have made a different response. But you came out with the same, well known pattern of turnabout talking points. That game only tells me you are pushing the typical false narratives. Please, stop and think again. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2013
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Elvis you claim: "I believe in man and that sound and educated people can define their own moral codes in a democratic order. We are not there yet in all corners of the world but hopefully we will be." Man can be like God ehh Elvis, knowing good and evil??? Where have I heard that line before??? Stephen Meyer - Morality Presupposes Theism (1 of 4) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpdh1b0X_M Objective Morality (1 of 5) - William Lane Craig - video playlist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sPn_cIh_Cg&feature=bf_prev&list=PL3DBE77BB622A22F7bornagain77
January 13, 2013
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Elvis4708: I didn't ask you to reiterate what you believe; I asked you why I should submit to democratic determination of moral rules.William J Murray
January 13, 2013
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F/N: It may be useful to view this, on founding morality. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2013
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KN, you claim:
"But that doesn’t require that the fundamental structure of reality itself conforms to those principles or that “mind” exist prior to “matter”."
And yet, as far as empirical evidence is concerned, we are warranted to believe that mind precedes "matter":
the argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness - January 18, 2012 Excerpt: (Proof # 2) If you believe in the theory of Quantum Mechanics, then you believe that conscious observation must be present to collapse a wave function. If consciousness did not exist prior to matter coming into existence, then it is impossible that matter could ever come into existence. Additionally, this rules out the possibility that consciousness is the result of quantum mechanical processes. Either consciousness existed before matter or QM is wrong, one or the other is indisputably true. http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/
Thus KN, you are obviously a smart fellow, so why all the word games? You clearly have no basis in empirical science, as you seemed to claim that you had, and yet you waste thousands of words acting like you have a basis in reality to make your argument.bornagain77
January 13, 2013
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kairosfocus; 1. I´m somewhat astonished by your allegation of my not so balanced and nuanced view. Haven´t you heard or read worse? I at least accept a possible creator (of unknown nature) which most of my anti-religious friends don´t. Most of them are inspired by Richard Dawkins who really is a hard-skinned atheist. 2. I have pondered on these matters for several years and I feel quite comfortable with my position. Murray; I believe in man and that sound and educated people can define their own moral codes in a democratic order. We are not there yet in all corners of the world but hopefully we will be.Elvis4708
January 13, 2013
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I wouldn't call it a concession on my part -- I thought I'd been pretty explicit in my commitment to anti-foundationalism! The bit about the symbol of the ouroboros is there to give some metaphorical expression to my particular version of anti-foundationalism. Of course there are grounds -- epistemic norms or principles -- that are discovered through transcendental reflection on our cognitive experience. And these principles regulate successful empirical inquiry into nature, effective moral deliberation, and so on. But that doesn't require that the fundamental structure of reality itself conforms to those principles or that "mind" exist prior to "matter".Kantian Naturalist
January 13, 2013
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PS: And, of course -- as BA 77 highlights -- the problem of actually grounding adequate reliability of mind, consciousness and reason as well as morals (beyond might and manipulation make 'right') lies assumed rather than addressed from the baseline of the chimp like creatures some 6 MYA. Remember WJM's thesis in the OP.kairosfocus
January 13, 2013
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KN: Pardon an in brief. First principles of right reason are necessary as foundations, starting with ability to recognise identity and mark distinctions. Next, you just argued for circles of discussion, i.e. coherence or dominance in circles. That is back to the raft game and skirting the issue of foundations and the need for overall coherence and grounding. In short, it looks like a disguised concession. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2013
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KN claims: "Another question is, “how did it come about that we have the sorts of capacities and incapacities that we have?”,, following through on the,, question yields an naturalistic explanation of how our cognitive capacities came into being in the first place." "The “ouroboros moment” arises when we realize that we can construct an empirically-grounded explanation for our capacity to construct empirically-grounded explanations." And this 'naturalistic empirically-grounded explanation' is what exactly for our cognitive capacities?bornagain77
January 13, 2013
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I should re-phrase my attitude towards comprehensive metaphysical systems (CMSs). I enjoy figuring out a CMS works, I have very definite views about which CMSs are more plausible, coherent, and powerful than others, and I share the conviction that we all have a loosely connected body of implicit metaphysical commitments. Making them explicit, organizing them in relation to one another, and setting it in relation to other CMSs are all part of the trade of the practicing metaphysician. The main reason I enjoy the discussions I have here at Uncommon Descent is because I believe that a CMS is made better by taking seriously criticisms (and critics) of that system. In previous discussions we've talked about "the raft" metaphor for knowledge, and while I do like Neurath's image, it's not the one I would chose for myself. Rather, my metaphor is the ouroboros, the snake that devours itself. Here's why that symbol speaks to me. We could begin with listing some very basic facts of human cognitive experience (e.g. Royce's "error exists"), and organize those in order to figure out what basic kinds of cognitive experience we have. My own preference here is to think about different kinds of discourse that we have: empirical discourse, mathematical discourse, moral discourse, aesthetic discourse, semantic discourse, modal discourse, etc. Each kind of discourse is constituted by its own rules which provide criteria for what assertions can count as objective within that discourse. Then we engage in 'transcendental reflection': we describe the basic capacities and incapacities that must be realized in order for us to have these kinds of discourses and correlated experiences. That much is recognizably Kantian. In my own thinking, which is deeply indebted to Kant but not orthodox Kantianism, I would say that our discourses and correlated experiences are grounded in two kinds of capacities: the capacities of embodiment and of sociality. (The emphasis on sociality traces the line of thought from Kant through Hegel to Dewey and contemporary pragmatists like Robert Brandom; the emphasis on embodiment traces the line of thought from Kant through Schelling to Bergson and Merleau-Ponty.) From the transcendental level, two different kinds of questions could be posed. One question is, "how do these capacities and incapacities explicate our ability to construct empirical explanations of how things stand in the world?" Another question is, "how did it come about that we have the sorts of capacities and incapacities that we have?" Following through on the first question yields an account of how sciences is possible; following through on the second question yields an naturalistic explanation of how our cognitive capacities came into being in the first place. (Kant, from what I can tell, did not think it made sense to pose the second question, whereas I think it does.) The "ouroboros moment" arises when we realize that we can construct an empirically-grounded explanation for our capacity to construct empirically-grounded explanations.Kantian Naturalist
January 13, 2013
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@LarTanner at 231 - states "JDH seems to have dropped out after my response to him at 138, which I take as a sign he agrees and has been corrected." Please LT never again make the absurd statement that my silence to respond to your non-answer means I admit defeat and stand corrected. It is a testament your inability to comprehend the well thought out and logical arguments against your thesis that you would assume my moving on to more important things ( such as job, life, family ) implies my assent. I have many better things to do than trying to convince a fool to part with his folly.JDH
January 13, 2013
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Elvis47089 said:
Morality on objective or divine ground does not exist. In a democracy voters decide what is good and bad moral and that´s the way it should be!
Who says? Why should I submit to democracy when it comes to morality?William J Murray
January 13, 2013
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E, Pardon, I will make some points: 1 --> Deism can be viewed as a form of theism. 2 --> Collins is hardly doing something new, the view that a cosmos stems from a mind behind its unified order goes back on the record through Newton to at least Plato. 3 --> There are all sorts of notions about morality and morality in a democratic community about. My remarks are shaped by my ancestors having been enslaved and liberty having to be won through democratic liberation struggle on Bible rooted principles of justice led by men like Wilberforce and Buxton. So, I take a clear, sharp, instructive case: A YOUNG CHILD, KIDNAPPED, RAPED AND TORTURED, THEN KILLED FOR SOMEONE'S SICK PLEASURE AND PROFIT THROUGH A SNUFF VIDEO. Is this or is this not objectively wrong? Not, as a matter of opinion and balance of views, but as an objective matter. 4 --> If your worldview's foundations do not contain a convincing IS that objectively grounds an OUGHT that gives a clear answer here, it is useless or worse than useless. (Remember, my ancestors simply did not have the resources to defeat the British Empire and win liberty, and Wilberforce started as a minority of one in parliament, backed by a literal handful of supporters.) 5 --> If you cannot answer to this decisively, you have nothing to stand with when the ruthless nihilists come with their manipulation and intimidation tactics. And, don't fool yourself that "it will never happen here." That is what the Jews of Germany thought in the face of clever, manipulative, demonic evil presenting itself as political messiah in a day of unprecedented crises. 6 --> We are not dealing with "Religion" or with particular religions, but with the question of what really obtains about our world, in a context of critical analysis of worldviews. 7 --> Surely you know that corrupt but clever men can seize dominion over any powerful institution and bend it to their power and domination games, from a temple [never forget the TWO incidents of cleansing a temple with a whip!], to a court, to a church to a school to a business to a parliament. If I have any bedrock political credo, it is this: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely, great men are bad men" -- Lord Acton, historian. 8 --> and you had better believe I see the usurpation and manipulation of science and education by ideological, a priori materialists in our day in that light. 9 --> The philosophy of monotheism is not the root of power abuse by corrupt men. And never forget the two end points of passion week: cleansing out a temple turned into a den of thieves, and a man declared innocent then cruelly whipped and crucified in light of the power games of corrupt elites, both religious and secular. Thank God, that was Friday, but Sunday was coming. 10 --> I find it a serious warning sign that after a century in which secularist, evolutionary materialist regimes have been responsible for over 100 millions murdered by govenment gone bad, and just in the leading democracy over the past 40 years under a corrupt ruling by its leading court 55 millions have been slaughtered in the womb, the fixed focus is on how religion is such a danger to us. I cry, red herring, led away to strawman soaked in poisonous ad hominems and set alight to distract attention from the dangers of amoral radical relativism backed up by the ideological captivity of science to materialism. 12 --> Kindly, tell me who is seriously advocating for theocracy, apart from IslamISTS that the self same secularists tiptoe around? This is a poisoned strawman set alight to cloud, confuse, choke, polarise and poison the atmosphere. (For one, it resolutely refuses to acknowledge the contribution of the Judaeo-Christian frame to modern liberty and democracy, distorting history willfully to do that by creating a scapegoat. In short, you have been fed a bill of manipulative false narrative talking points 4rooted in half truths and outright lies that exploit gaps in your knowledge base, and cannot seem to see the obvious, even when it is spelled out. No prizes for guessing how that was done, by whom and to the benefit of what agenda.) 13 --> If I were hearing a more balanced, more nuanced view, I would not be so strong in saying what I am saying, but you have to realise I can smell an agit prop subversion agenda and its signature talking point patterns upwind a dozen miles off, having lived through a society that narrowly escaped a major communist subversion attempt. ____________ I hope I have been plain enough to at least trigger you to think again and ask, what if at least some of what this fellow off in the Caribbean who went through a mini civil war that pivoted on extremely ruthless nihilistic manipulative follytricks backed up by murder -- which cost him an "aunt" -- during his uni days might just have a modicum of truth in it? Please, please, please, think again. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2013
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Elvis: Pardon, I was giving a shorthand way of saying that the arguments to God has not stopped at the stage of from Aquinas up to Kant et al, and there are pretty serious modern forms put up by Plantinga et al. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2013
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KN (440): But the whole is that which has nothing external to it — if it did, it would not be the whole — hence, the whole cannot be explained — (..)
This - of course - makes sense. The whole has no exterior cause. This notion is fundamental to the cosmological argument, the Uncaused Cause, the Prime Mover. What exactly is your point?Box
January 13, 2013
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What Is That To You? Words and Music, Alan Pomper (C) 2006 - All rights reserved 1. There was a time before the past - when things to come were clearly cast On Earth below and Stars above - Of what He’d do - Mercy - Love Of what He then made true - What is that to you?  2. How much time does man require - To see the things that made their hour? What else can His arm reveal? - His story told that then came real Of sacrifice He’d do -What is that to you? What will make us feel - The weight of history real? With eyes to see and heart to feel - Open our eyes - all You provide - All You gave to know the way And still we choose to hide! 3. The Word to me, this plaintive song - The Truth upon this world so long  Before this world was formed in space - He laid His plan - eternal grace His Word made to come true - With eyes to see the cross - With heart to feel the cost With faith not to be lost 4. We find the lines before they passed - Isaiah now, history fast Of pains for us He’d do - There is not found another way That gave so much that is to say - He gave His all for you He  gave  His  all  its  true - What is that to you?alan
January 13, 2013
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KN: You have a lot going on in your brain, but that doesn't mean is the whole thing! - just a thought. Or - how to confuse oneself and others to avoid not realizing that's what your doing.alan
January 13, 2013
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