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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably exists,  even if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
kairofocus; I´m sorry for this late response. You have much to say of which some parts are incomprehensible to me(e.g. undefined variables in your math formulas). My response is therefore a bit selective. 1. Comment 295; I don´t know what you mean with “theistic views developed in modern forms”. I would guess there are several interpretations of that expression. Anyway, I have read books by guys like Francis S Collins, who promulgates a view that attempts to integrate theism with natural science. The natural laws are looked upon as parts of God´s plan and it is a scientific duty to, as much as possible, reveal this plan and, by doing so, get humanity closer to the divine. However; What´s the difference between this view and deism? 2. Comment 295; I have stoic ideals. To me, morality is an individual quality even though many people today do agree on what is evil and good. Morality on objective or divine ground does not exist. In a democracy voters decide what is good and bad moral and that´s the way it should be! 3. Comment 295; As I wrote in my first article a creator of some sort cannot be entirely ruled out. But that´s a deistic creator. Whether or not there is or was a creator has no importance for my anti-religious attitude as I think that the existence of religion is justified by divine providence – that does not exist! 4. Comment 362; Theists, criticized for all the wrongdoings monotheism has committed for millennia, are often delighted to point out fallacies of secularist and “democratic” political regimes. And that´s how it is; crooks, bandits, maniacs etc will be there no matter political system. But democracy is at least an ideal worth striving for. Theocracy is not since monotheism is based on fundamental elitist and undemocratic “interpretations” and dogmas(see 365). We must also remember that democracy, true(not Greek) democracy, is a very young phenomenon as compared to religion. Some patience is certainly needed in the global democratic evolution.Elvis4708
January 13, 2013
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KN:
As for the fine-tuning argument, I’ll admit that it looks like a decent argument for something like a divine creator. The reason why it doesn’t convince me is because I just don’t see why a divine creator is a better explanation than infinite universes.
This is not really a rational option. Infinity is a concept. It cannot do anything, explain anything, or be instantiated in nature.
There are several different ways of hearing the question, “why is there something rather than nothing?”
No, there are not different ways of hearing that question. The whole point of the quote was to reduce the problem to it simplest essence.
For me personally, I’m terribly fond of Wittgenstein’s rejoinder: “it is not how things are, but that they are, which is the mystical” (TLP 6.44).
That is just another way of saying that the "why" is more important than the how, which is the point of the original quote. Why do you construct all these unnecessarily complicated barriers in order to avoid confronting basic issues?
But the whole is that which has nothing external to it — if it did, it would not be the whole — hence, the whole cannot be explained — though it can be, of course, beheld, appreciated, marveled at, etc.
Don't you think it would be a good idea to define the word "whole" prior to making a statement like that? The relationship between a whole and its parts is different than the relationship between a whole and its cause? Further, a caused "whole" may be different from the "whole" of reality, which, in turn, could include many wholes and their parts. Again, you appear to be wallowing in complexity in order to avoid rational discourse.StephenB
January 13, 2013
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KN: I think we have had a good exchange across several threads now. Given the undue hostility and patently hate-driven personalities I have seen across the past couple of years (and hate site operators, I am not bothering to look at whatever lies, smears and threats you may be spewing forth these days, and hope that others only do so to see what you are pushing and manifest as character . . . please, have the decency to look yourself in the mirror, stop, reform, and make amends), that is not to be underestimated. I see your lack of confidence in comprehensive metaphysical/worldview systems. My problem here is, that such cannot be avoided, they can only be shunted to the side of being implicit, assumed and unexamined. Unexamined metaphysics, notoriously, is bad or even dangerous metaphysics. And in particular, I have excellent reason to see that evolutionary materialism and its fellow travellers are very dangerous indeed. As to sharks, I speak of the destructive forces of chaos, within our civilisation and in the wider world. Call them the street nihilists and the organised enemies if you will. My concern is that if we do not make sure to first do no harm, we may inadvertently trigger a disintegration of that which has maintained a relatively wholesome culture that has fostered liberty, genuine progress and reformation for centuries (don't ever underestimate the fact that I am descended from slaves and that my very name writes in the story of standing up to and paying a horrific and unjustly imposed price at the hands of of abusive oppressive government into my personality). First, do no harm, I say. Next, I see your:
The reason I disagree is due to two claims: (1) I think that we have perfectly good reasons to accept that evolutionary pressures produced reliable pattern-mapping cognitive systems, such as what we see in many different kinds of animals; (2) the differences between rational human cognition and ‘brute’ animal cognition can be explained largely in terms of the evolution of language. In a much earlier discussion with Mung, I raised the question, “what else is needed to produce an autopoeitic system besides an autocatalytic set and a semi-permeable membrane?” Likewise, for me the question here is, “what else is needed to produce a rational minded animal besides a minded animal and a natural language?” As for the fine-tuning argument, I’ll admit that it looks like a decent argument for something like a divine creator. The reason why it doesn’t convince me is because I just don’t see why a divine creator is a better explanation than infinite universes.
First, I have excellent reason to believe that while we do have functioning minds, there is no good reason to believe that blind chance multiplied by differential reproductive success suffices to account for the mind, starting from full language capacity on up. There are just so stories and handwaving that embed a priori materialism, but I find no reason to have confidence that even the baseline of the amount of functionally specific complex organisation and information that would have to be programmed into say a population of chimp like creatures somewhere in E Africa 6 MYA, can be generated by the atomic-temporal resources of the observed cosmos in its credible thermodynamic lifespan [~ 50 mn times the estimated age of the observed cosmos to date . . . and the sort of polarisation and strawman tactic snip, misrepresent and snipe games I have faced -- most recently on cancer-causing viruses -- do not even allow me to cite just "cosmos"]. We are talking millions of bits of info, vs a credible FSCO/I threshold of 1,000 bits. That is one key -- and unanswered -- point that design theory brings to the table. In other words,t eh very ability to express yourself in verbal, symbolic, abstraction-expressing language is on the table as needing to be explained on evolutionary materialist premises. In short, in the clip above, you have summed up the first major point of the problem and handed it back as the solution, begging the big and unanswered question involved. Through the evident word-magic of a priori evolutionary materialism. So, pardon my lack of confidence that such blind forces are capable of explaining accuracy of thought, concept formation, reasoning on abstract matters and morally tinged logical judgements etc. Inded, as I have pointed out above, the very notion of reducing mind to a neurological processor system, is fraught with self-referential incoherences in many ways, ways that come out so soon as one becomes specific. The fate of Freudianism, behaviourism, Marxism etc are sign posts that point to the much broader class of problems faced by any evolutionary materialism-driven attempted account of human mental capacities and the credibility of the world of thought. What is required to explain cell based, Carbon Chemistry, aqueous medium life starts, of course withe the fine tuned cosmos that accounts for these ingredients and the sites that life is found in. Pause on that . . . Skipping to the case of some warm little pond or the like, we then see the need to account for digitally controlled chemistry that uses complex information rich molecular machines as execution units for codes, algorithms and the like, implicating encapsulated metabolic automata with the additional feature of a von Neumann self replicator that codes for replicating the whole unit. This poses a major organisation and information barrier to attempts to explain OOL on blind chemistry and physics. One that has not been crossed, is nowhere near being crossed and is getting wider as our understanding of the complexities involved deepens. It is not an accident that he actual -- as opposed to projected, propagandistic -- roots of design theory arose in connexion with the cosmological and thermodynamic-reaction kinetics- informational challenges (not to mention atmospheric physics, ocean chemistry and geological challenges that also obtain) confronting OOL speculations and experimentation. Since the turn of the 1980's, the situation has got worse and worse, not better. As for the notion of an infinite regress of sub cosmi or the like, have you worked through the thermodynamics involved, and addressed the implications of ever-increasing entropy in any fundamentally physical system? The answer comes up: finite lifespan, and heat death. I have already pointed to the problem of traversing a countable infinite succession of steps to reach the present, which is tied to the issue that mathematics is connected to the deep necessary structure of any possible world. I do not think, on this alone, that such a world is even feasible. 9the old Steady State theory had matter and energy popping out of nowhere, feeding in steady fresh materials and I would infer a non-closed system. That itself had serious problems.) the need for a sub-cosmos bakery to do the world popping in a context where in the cosmological config space vicinity of our observed world, there is credibly an extremely sharply peaked operating point zone, i.e. local fine tuning. There is no good reason to imagine that a cosmos bakery would be likely to do what we used to do in labs: sample much more tightly near a knee or a resonance peak. In short, you have simply exported the fine tuning problem up one level. It is suprisingly hard to get rid of, even on multiverse scenarios. That brings up the next problem, multiverse speculations, even when constructed while wearing the proverbial lab coat, are not observationally anchored. metaphysics on cosmology, not strictly speaking, science. We are still back at the issue of fine tuning pointing to contrivance rooted in monkeying with the physics of the cosmos, thirty years after Hoyle put the issue squarely on the table in those terms. Of course, in the end a worldview is going to rest on a cluster of first plausibles, implying a faith-point. That is why the business of serious worldviews choice pivots on comparative difficulties, and it is why it is improper to permit the imposition of a priori materialist censorship on a discussion that has now crossed over -- too often, unannounced -- into outright philosophy. So, we are back, full circle, at the challenge of reasonable faith and worldviews, on as broad a topic as can be named: roots of being and of the cosmos we live in. With fine tuning being absolutely crucial, fine tuning that strongly points to an awesomely powerful cosmos building architect of astonishing knowledge, subtlety, skill and evident intent to create conditions that set up the exact kind of C-Chemistry, cell based life we experience. Where also -- shock -- the sites that are best suited for such life, seem also to be practically begging one to investigate, explore and reflect on the cosmos. As in, a big hint . . . Okay, it has been a very useful exchange, for which I must thank you [for myself and for onlookers who are benefitting from simply seeing what a serious exchange on these issues looks like], even as we may go forward a bit more. Moretime, time to get back to rest if not sleep, as insomnia power has its limits . . . KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2013
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In re: Box @ 439:
This I find truly amazing and disappointing to be frank. How can any philosopher say this about this grand old question? ‘Why is there something rather than nothing?’, and where does it all come from? … Well … that does not interest me terribly ??? I don’t get it.
There are several different ways of hearing the question, "why is there something rather than nothing?". For me personally, I'm terribly fond of Wittgenstein's rejoinder: "it is not how things are, but that they are, which is the mystical" (TLP 6.44). Meaning, of course I'm interested in explanations of all kinds, but one feature of explanations is that they situate what is to be explained in relation to something that does the explaining. But the whole is that which has nothing external to it -- if it did, it would not be the whole -- hence, the whole cannot be explained -- though it can be, of course, beheld, appreciated, marveled at, etc.Kantian Naturalist
January 12, 2013
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KN: “The most a comprehensive metaphysical system can do is make explicit how things stand to those who are situated at a particular time and place. (…) But I also think that justifications and explanations do come to an end somewhere (…) “
Do you mean that some things have no explanation? IOW that some things are ‘miracles’? In post 405 you stated, KN: “(..) that doesn’t mean that everything must have some reason or other.” Or do you mean that our reason is not capable of discovering the reasons for certain things?
KN: “The question about the origin of the cosmos as a whole does not interest me terribly.“
This I find truly amazing and disappointing to be frank. How can any philosopher say this about this grand old question? 'Why is there something rather than nothing?', and where does it all come from? … Well … that does not interest me terribly ??? I don’t get it.Box
January 12, 2013
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In re: Kairosfocus @ 420
Pardon a first rough reaction, but that sounds uncommonly like, having no foundational grounding for the reliability of the conscious, knowing, reasoning, warranting etc mind, I take it a brute fact. This sounds a lot like the same on morality and the same relative to the question of worldviews and foundations.
Actually, I do think that there's a perfectly good argument for the reliability of rational cognition; I don't take it as a 'brute fact'. (By this I mean that I think there's a good argument for defeating Cartesian skepticism. But that might not be what you have in mind here.) I just don't think that establishing the reliability of rational cognition stands or falls with any particular claims about the origins of the universe.
You will recall my pointing to yes, the raft is always under/subject to reconstruction, but also it sits in the sea which provides support and foundation for the structure AND for the sharks waiting to have lunch if we mess up royally and cause the systems to break up.
I have a feeling that I don't really understand what you mean by "the sharks" in this extended metaphor. Insofar as I can make sense of it in my own terms, I would say that I have my own reasons for thinking that contemporary Western civilization is headed straight off the cliff. And I think that because we have managed to build for ourselves a society in which alternatives to capitalism are basically non-existent and a topic for ridicule whenever mentioned. So we're unable to stop ourselves from destroying the ecosystems upon which human life and flourishing depends.
I think I am reading you as resorting to a sort of emergentism, multiplied by a pattern of disintegration of domains of the life of the mind.
What strikes you as a single explanation strikes me as multiple explanations, the domains of which are interconnected in various ways.
To that, I must respond, that the forces of chance variation and natural and/or sexual selection and of psycho-social conditioning etc, are such that there is no good reason to accept that a credible mind is likely to arise on such.
The reason I disagree is due to two claims: (1) I think that we have perfectly good reasons to accept that evolutionary pressures produced reliable pattern-mapping cognitive systems, such as what we see in many different kinds of animals; (2) the differences between rational human cognition and 'brute' animal cognition can be explained largely in terms of the evolution of language. In a much earlier discussion with Mung, I raised the question, "what else is needed to produce an autopoeitic system besides an autocatalytic set and a semi-permeable membrane?" Likewise, for me the question here is, "what else is needed to produce a rational minded animal besides a minded animal and a natural language?" As for the fine-tuning argument, I'll admit that it looks like a decent argument for something like a divine creator. The reason why it doesn't convince me is because I just don't see why a divine creator is a better explanation than infinite universes. At the end of the day, the Democritean response to Anaxagoras still looks pretty good to me, too: don't underestimate what infinity can do! I just don't think that the multiverse explanation is any better than a divine creator, either. As I keep stressing, from my perspective it's a leap of faith either way.Kantian Naturalist
January 12, 2013
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In re: Box @ 413
First I want to praise you for your analysis of the conflict: ‘pluralism and monism’. You bring light to the discussion; a fine example of intellectual honesty.
Thank you; it's nice to know that my efforts are appreciated.
But I’m not sure about your assessment of the scope of reason in regard to conflicts of this order. What about heliocentrism vs geocentrism, is that conflict too beyond the scope of reason? What do you think about the role of Ockham’s razor in these matters?
The conflict between heliocentrism and geocentrism is a local conflict, specific to a particular domain of inquiry, with more-or-less agreed-upon criteria for how to resolve it. (Though maybe that's too anodyne a reading of how the conflict really played itself out, historically -- one might think that it through this particular debate that the domain of "astronomy" was constituted. I'm not sure.) Mind you, I'm thoroughly fascinated with comprehensive metaphysical systems. I'm just not very confident that we will ever hit upon one that is ultimately true for all times and places. The most a comprehensive metaphysical system can do is make explicit how things stand to those who are situated at a particular time and place.
The limited scope of reason is a returning theme in your reasoning
Yes, I try to be consistent. :)
If not ‘everything must have some reason’ are there any objective rules to guide our reason? Or are we allowed to choose what to explain and what not to explain in order to get results that we ‘want’?
I think that having an attitude of, "hey, this is interesting! Let's try and figure out what caused it!" is central to empirical inquiry (including but not limited to science). But I also think that justifications and explanations do come to an end somewhere, and the goal is just keep on pushing the envelope. I do think that one is permitted to make some choices here and there, without shirking one's intellectual obligations. I'm deeply interested in the problem of abiogenesis, but actually I'm much more interested in what I call "the problem of 'alogogenesis'" -- the problem of how rational cognition evolved from other kinds of animal cognition. Compared to those problems, the question about the origin of the cosmos as a whole does not interest me terribly. Maybe that shows a lack of intellectual integrity on my part, but I don't believe so. I do believe that there are "objective rules to guide our reason," but I have a pretty modest conception of "objective". By my lights, "objective" just means "independent of the private mental life of any particular person", whereas "subjective" means "dependent on the private mental life of some particular person." So how I'm feeling right now is a set of subjective facts -- if my mental life were different, the facts would be different. I thereby distinguish between "objective" and "absolute." I use "absolute" to mean "what comes into view as being the case from no particular perspective", whereas "relative" means "what comes into view as being the case from a particular perspective". Using the terms in that way, I think of both science and ethics as being both objective-and-relative. The norms and principles of rational thought and conduct have an objectivity-for-us, and objectivity-for-us is all the objectivity that I want or need. The absolute is nothing to me -- perhaps in that sense I'm not so much an atheist as a post-theist, someone who is trying to get past "theism or atheism?"Kantian Naturalist
January 12, 2013
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Atheists detest Reason with every bit as much passion as they love the concept, which they have the brass neck to tout as their special charism. Reminds me of the old clerical joke about the nun who said that humility was the special charism of their order.Axel
January 12, 2013
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If it were, atheists would be the last people competent to do so. That's all too clear.Axel
January 12, 2013
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F/N: On contingency of unicorns. Horses eat and breathe etc, they are born, they die. A hypothetical horse with a horn like a Rhino's, would reasonably be about the same. Indeed within a century, presumably we should be able to genetically engineer one, though I doubt the length of horn described would be sensible, albeit a Texas Longhorn comes close. KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2013
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KN
If I were inclined to argue against the existence of God on logical grounds — and since it’s a Friday night and I haven’t yet decided to go out or not, so at present I have nothing better to do — I would be inclined to the following line of thought: how does one establish that it is possible that God exists?
When atheism confronts reason, reason will always lose. That is why skeptics feel the need to abandon reason even before they enter the arena. All the classical objections against God's existence are riddled with logical errors that become popularized, such as Russell's silly question about "Who made God?" or Hume's denial of the intellectual faculty or Kant's doubts about noumenal knowledge. The idea is to construct unnecessarily complicated barriers as a means for avoiding reason's obvious conclusions.StephenB
January 12, 2013
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Alan, My comment was meant to be humorous. "Logic contradicts your view." "Not if you stop using logic!"William J Murray
January 12, 2013
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WJM 417: don't you mean the other way around. Unless you can elaborate - define excessive rationalism as being un-rational.alan
January 12, 2013
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"Coincidentally" Frank Turek's radio program this morning: Cold Case Homicide Detective Evaluates Evidence for Christianity! Join me and J Warner Wallace Today 10:05-11 am ET, 144 stations & http://crossexamined.org/radio.aspbornagain77
January 12, 2013
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OT: A detective looks at the historical evidence for Christianity: (Dec. 28, 2012) Razor Swift -- Cold Case Christianity - W: J. Warner Wallace - radio interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsPm8JOw7Twbornagain77
January 12, 2013
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F/N: Do you see the issue that emerges? Namely, that if God is indeed a necessary being, it will not be feasible to construct a possible, coherent, factually adequate world in which God -- underlying grounding necessary being who is the basis for reason, order, sustainability, morality, mind etc -- is not present, even if we may only imply that presence. As a result, worldviews that reject God, will in the end be infeasible, i.e. groundless, absurd, circular, incoherent, irrational, amoral, factually inadequate and either reducing to being simplistic or else becoming after the fact ad hoc patchworks, etc. Sounds familiar? (Also cf here on for a critical survey of our own civilisation in light of these issues, building on an amended form of Schaeffer's visionary ideas.) KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2013
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Okay, a different WJM, then. KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2013
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Correction to bottom of above: I can easily understand the view that belief in god is ridiculous – I’ve been there – but I have since realized that just because one has a ridiculous notion of god, doesn’t mean all notions of god are ridiculous.William J Murray
January 12, 2013
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KN: Following up, re:
One might think, “well, I can conceive of God’s existing, so it’s possible that God exists.” Not so fast, buckaroo, because that only works if conceivability entails possibility, and it’s just not really clear if it does. In fact, it’s just got to be the case that conceivability doesn’t entail possibility, because otherwise, we wouldn’t be able to conceive of impossible things, such as geometrical objects that have both four internal right angles and all the points of which are equidistant from the center, or formal systems that are both rich enough to express arithmetic and in which all sentences can be proven either true or false. To show that God is impossible is a much taller order — I mean, He certainly seems possible, right? Well, maybe. Maybe not. If God is impossible, it would be because the concept contains a contradiction. So, is the concept of God contradictory?
1 --> No-one has claimed that conceivability implies possibility, that is a shadow opponent. 2 --> What has been done is to ask, what does contingency mean, in light of a very familiar and instructive case study, namely a fire and the fire tetrahedron that lays out necessary causal factors, i.e enabling factors that must be present or "on" for the fire to begin, or continue, and of course as fire fighters know, taking out a factor (putting to "off" state) kills the fire. 3 --> So, we have isolated the necessary external, enabling causal factor as pivotal to contingency of being. 4 --> From this we see that hat which begins to exist, or may cease from existing or otherwise depends on enabling factors, is contingent. (This may be explored in more details with a box of matches.) 5 --> So, now we can freely ask: what would follow from a candidate being, say X, being such that it has no such external enabling factors? It would have no beginning, it cannot end, it is eternal, it is necessarily so, if it exists at all. 6 --> This is a logical exercise, yes, but an important one. 7 --> We then see that if something is like this, a genuinely necessary being, it is such that it is eternal, and that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CONSTRUCT A FEASIBLE WORLD IN WHICH IT IS NOT PRESENT. (That is the only way that it can be there, it has to be written into the DNA of a possible world, i.e. the issue is what is ordering that world. Hence the examples from mathematics.) 8 --> We have a clearer picture of what necessary being means. 9 --> Can such fail? Obviously, we may mistake a contingent being for a necessary one, as was done with the attempt to dismiss the ontological argument by substituting a pink unicorn. Nope, a unicorn, if possible (existing in some possible world) is obviously contingent. Go back and play with that box of matches again. 10 --> The other way that a candidate necessary being, X, can fail is obvious: for some reason, it is not possible at all, it is present in no worlds, i.e. it is impossible. The concept much less the existence of X is fatally flawed, like the proverbial square circle. We can make mouth noises about it, but once we move beyond such, we see that it cannot be constructed or existent in this or any world. Usually, for the reason that the concept embeds a contradiction that would force something to be and not be in the same sense and locus. 11 --> Now, it is obvious that eternality is a core part of the concept of God, which -- per our box of matches -- means, God is inherently a candidate necessary being. That is, if God is not an impossible notion, then inevitably we cannot construct a feasible world in which God is not present. 12 --> Where also we have seen that if a candidate necessary being is possible [i.e. we can have a feasible world in which it is present], it will be there in all possible worlds, and it will be in the actual one. 13 --> Which brings us back to the point of the discussion of worldviews on a cumulative case warrant basis, namely, that the rejection of God implies the view that God is an impossible being. 14 --> You actually imply that, by arguing:
is there a contradiction within the concept of an infinite mind? A mind is, among other things, something that perceives, thinks, and acts. But perception and action require that there be something external to the mind — namely, a world. But since God is infinite, nothing is external to Him. Before He created, He was; He was the infinite mind that He is prior to anything other than Himself coming into existence. But does it even make sense to suppose that a mind could exist without some world? Is the very concept of an infinite mind something like a square circle?
15 --> oddly enough, the answer to this was there long since, when Paul cited was it Cleanthes to the Athenian elites of the Areopagus council c AD 50, there in Athens:
Acts 17:22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,[b] 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way towards him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;[c] as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’[d] 29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” [ESV]
16 --> That is, there is a misconception on what perception entails. I can perceive within myself, through meta cognitive processes closely tied to my being a conscious minded reality, so why not God? And, linked closely, why on earth would perception, thinking and acting require a world "external" to the entity? 17 --> Has not this been the foundational view of Christian theism for 2,000 years? is it not the view that God is the creator and sustainer of the world, who is everywhere present and actively sustaining it by the world of his power? For instance, from Col 1, speaking of the Logos/Son:
Col 1:16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [ESV]
18 --> Why are you dismissing such by an anonymous side-swipe? Have you shown this to be impossible, or is it that it only seems so to you? 19 --> Which brings us back full circle again, to the issue of the implicit atheistical commitment to the impossibility of God. On fair comment, such needs to be shown, not assumed or implied. 20 --> With the logic of necessity of being in play, i.e. if a candidate necessary being is not instead contingent or impossible, it will be actual. Here, in the guise of God as the eternal ground of reality, actual or possible. ___________ So, we see the importance of these core worldview issues. And BTW, in Paul's opening, he pointed to the situation where the assembled elites and guardians of the Western intellectual tradition being based in a city where tehy had -- apparently for centuries -- maintained a monument tot heir ignorance on teh foundational, most important reality of all. He whom you acknowledge your ignorance of even as you blindly grope in worship, he it is whom I proclaim prophetically to you (and explain as well so you can understand), in the context of that which is reasonable and evident from 500+ eyewitnesses to the resurrection of the man at the crux of all history, God's man himself. The same, who is powerfully and evidently at work, rescuing and transforming the lives of millions across history and all around us as we speak today. So, let us seriously inquire with a genuinely open and reasonable mind. KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2013
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Elvis4708 @ 387: My parents weren't particularly religious. We went to church on Sunday, but that was pretty much the extent of it and IMO they went just because it was the socially expected norm back then in that area. I don't remember ever hearing a peep from them about God, Jesus or the Bible. They stopped going by the time I was 10 or 12. I guess it depends on what you call "religious" as to whether or not I would be considered religious. I haven't been to church of any sort for a service since I was about 12. There is no written, formal doctrine I adhere to. However, I have not always been like this. I have at times in my life been very religious, and at another time a hardcore atheist (although some might consider such atheism a kind of religion). I will agree with your premise, though, that most people follow in the steps of their parents when it comes to what they believe. IMO, most people - whether atheist or theist - live lives under the rule of largely unexamined beliefs. IMO, most theists are theistic, and most atheists are atheistic, for irrational, unexamined reasons. The question is: which view holds up to rational scrutiny? I can easily understand the view that belief in god is ridiculous - I've been there - but I have since realized that just because on has a ridiculous notion of god, doesn't mean all notions of god are ridiculous.William J Murray
January 12, 2013
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Of serendipitous note to the cause and effect and falling dominoes comments: Physicist creates math model to predict maximum incremental domino size (with video) - January 11, 2013 http://phys.org/news/2013-01-physicist-math-maximum-incremental-domino.htmlbornagain77
January 12, 2013
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KF, If you mean the son of O'Hare, no.William J Murray
January 12, 2013
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Mung, I do understand, and indeed I am thinking that it would be good if the cited had also used a simple symbol for the possibility mode, maybe p(X) = it is possible that X. Then there are the quantifiers, I suppose A and E could stand in for universal and existential quantifiers. (I am not going to try to compose a blog comment post that goes looking for whatever special codes have been developed to do that!) I note that reading aloud and translating helps. In any case the point was to highlight that the truly contentious point is the issue: God is in the end necessary or impossible, as if a candidate necessary being is possible, it exists in some possible world, and that means that there is nothing wrong with the logic of the construct, so it is actually not possible to construct a world in which it is not real. So, in the actual world, that being is present. I used the truth in the expression 2 + 3 = 5 to show this, and highlighted the existence of numbers for the same reason. Notice, in an empty world, the empty set is valid, and from it we can define operations and so we collect the succession of sets: {} = 0, {0} = 1, {0, 1} = 2, etc, i.e. we have numbers, and off we go to the world of mathematics. Once we are here, mind is here, and we can look at an imagined world that is possible, that is empty, and see that numbers and the links between them are unavoidable even in an empty world. That is itself a big clue about the underlying nature of reality, as mind so plainly here is prior to matter. I think it cannot be emphasised enough, that all of this is built on the underlying fact that is self-evident: here we are, minded, conscious, reasoning, knowing, embodied, morally governed creatures in a physical world that is credibly contingent, a world that is a cosmos not a chaos . . . it gives every indication of being a unified intelligible ordered whole. THAT is the core cluster of facts that any self-respecting worldview has to seriously and satisfactorily (hopefully, soundly) account for. This, too, is what makes KN's concessions above overnight so significant in light of the point in the OP and also in light of the boasts of ever so many "brights." It is sure beginning to look like some shoes are on the other foot. KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2013
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KN: I find this quite interesting:
[KN:] the power of reason to guide human affairs, to indicate the possibilities for action, to suggest new avenues for empirical inquiry, and to check our passions and prejudices, is not the slightest bit imperiled by the thought that it is simply a brute fact that the multiverse is of such a nature that our particular universe, with its biogenic laws of physics, just happens to be among those that it causes.
Pardon a first rough reaction, but that sounds uncommonly like, having no foundational grounding for the reliability of the conscious, knowing, reasoning, warranting etc mind, I take it a brute fact. This sounds a lot like the same on morality and the same relative to the question of worldviews and foundations. (You will recall my pointing to yes, the raft is always under/subject to reconstruction, but also it sits in the sea which provides support and foundation for the structure AND for the sharks waiting to have lunch if we mess up royally and cause the systems to break up. As in you see a sort of foundherentism and "intelligibility-ism" in my views. Also a serious concern that if the lunatics run the asylum on the ship and manage to break it up, the sharks are waiting to have lunch. For a slightly different historical-cum-management take look here, as in messing up royally by playing advocacy and manipulation games, following who butters your bread rather than duties of care and a public manipulated into artificial stupidity, can be disastrous. It will not be a surprise to you to learn that this is one of my big concerns for our civilisation, and that -- having seen my homeland torn apart and ruined economically by glib messianistic pols, I take a very dim view of such indeed.) I think I am reading you as resorting to a sort of emergentism, multiplied by a pattern of disintegration of domains of the life of the mind. You will of course realise that to one from my perspective, that looks uncommonly like conceding the basic point of a want of foundation. In other moods, I have spoken of materialistic poof-magic, and there it is, folks, take it on trust. To that, I must respond, that the forces of chance variation and natural and/or sexual selection and of psycho-social conditioning etc, are such that there is no good reason to accept that a credible mind is likely to arise on such. I have laid out my 101-level reasons already, in 146 above in this thread. Now, as a humble[d? . . . ] applied physicist, I find this intriguing: the multiverse is of such a nature that our particular universe, with its biogenic laws of physics . . . 1 --> What is the empirical observational basis for a multiverse, strings, branes etc? [Last I checked, it seemed to be nil, but perhaps someone can inform me, maybe I overlooked something about our ability to observe other space-time manifolds, or the like. I do know that there is a strong feeling that far too much of cosmology and linked fields these days is more of speculative highly mathematical metaphysics, than actual empirically grounded science.] 2 --> Never mind that, what is your response to the issue of finetuning in even a multiverse as was raised by Leslie in his convergence observation and his fly on the long wall metaphor:
CONVERGENCE: One striking thing about the fine tuning is that a force strength or a particle mass often appears to require accurate tuning for several reasons at once. Look at electromagnetism. Electromagnetism seems to require tuning for there to be any clear-cut distinction between matter and radiation; for stars to burn neither too fast nor too slowly for life’s requirements; for protons to be stable; for complex chemistry to be possible; for chemical changes not to be extremely sluggish; and for carbon synthesis inside stars (carbon being quite probably crucial to life). Universes all obeying the same fundamental laws could still differ in the strengths of their physical forces, as was explained earlier, and random variations in electromagnetism from universe to universe might then ensure that it took on any particular strength sooner or later. Yet how could they possibly account for the fact that the same one strength satisfied many potentially conflicting requirements, each of them a requirement for impressively accurate tuning? [Our Place in the Cosmos, 1998] FLY-SWATTING: . . . the need for such explanations does not depend on any estimate of how many universes would be observer-permitting, out of the entire field of possible universes. Claiming that our universe is ‘fine tuned for observers’, we base our claim on how life’s evolution would apparently have been rendered utterly impossible by comparatively minor alterations in physical force strengths, elementary particle masses and so forth. There is no need for us to ask whether very great alterations in these affairs would have rendered it fully possible once more, let alone whether physical worlds conforming to very different laws could have been observer-permitting without being in any way fine tuned. Here it can be useful to think of a fly on a wall, surrounded by an empty region. A bullet hits the fly Two explanations suggest themselves. Perhaps many bullets are hitting the wall or perhaps a marksman fired the bullet. There is no need to ask whether distant areas of the wall, or other quite different walls, are covered with flies so that more or less any bullet striking there would have hit one. The important point is that the local area contains just the one fly.
3 --> I am also intrigued by the phrase about biogenetic laws of physics. Kindly, let me know what laws, discovered and verified by whom, are responsible for spontaneously setting up a cosmos in which the first four elements are H, He, C and O, with N near the top, and giving such properties that aqueous medium organic chemistry is enabled in the teeth of the comments by Hoyle on monkeying with physics. 4 --> Further to these laws, do let me know which ones are responsible for spontaneously writing code in the living cell starting at about 100,000 - 1 mn bits [along with creating the execution machines], and for spontaneously writing the 10 - 100 mn further bits, dozens of times, t5o account for the major body plans. By whom discovered, how empirically verified, when? (Why no Nobel or equivalent prizes and no blazed headlines to date?) 5 --> In light of the linked concerns at 146, how did these laws account for the credibility of the material mind and our sense of consciousness and its features that gave rise to the hard problem of consciousness? _________ You will understand that until solid answers to these and related questions are in hand, I would be led rather to infer that I am seeing a creedal declaration and a hope not an achievement. I ask you to reflect on what you are acknowledging in light of the base issues in the thread. KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2013
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WJM, are you THAT WJM? (Knocks side of head, hearing hollow sound, blushes . . . ) KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2013
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Elvis a word of advise, look up who William J Murray is..... you might just see these discussions in a very new light....Andre
January 11, 2013
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Excessive Rationalism: when logic gets in the way of believing what one wants.William J Murray
January 11, 2013
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Box at 388, how sad for your mother to say that to you at 6, and Richard Dawkins accuses Christians of child abuse. Perhaps this comment from Pam Reynold's may bring more remedy: "I think death is an illusion. I think death is a really nasty, bad lie. I don’t see any truth in the word death at all" – Pam Reynolds Lowery (1956 – May 22, 2010) http://christopherlovejoy.com/2011/03/20/who-you-really-are/ The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely "Monitored" NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560bornagain77
January 11, 2013
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I'd like to explain my increasing girth in ways that have nothing to do with my food intake and lack of exercise!Mung
January 11, 2013
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KN, you’re not a reductionist. Do you accept top-down causation?
To be quite honest, I'm not thoroughly familiar with the concept. But insofar as I have any grasp of it, yes.Kantian Naturalist
January 11, 2013
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