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L&FP44: What are Self-evident truths [SET’s] and why do they matter?

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A classic case in point of self-evident truth can be seen by splitting our fingers into a two and a three then joining them again — and, sorry, this needs to be hammered home hard as we are cutting across the grain of current education and cultural conditioning.

So, pardon demonstration by undeniable example and re-use of an illustration:

As a bonus, we see another SET that is like unto the first, self-evident, but is subtler. That error exists is not only a massive empirical fact but an undeniable truth. The attempted denial actually supports the Josiah Royce proposition.

By way of Epictetus (c. 180 AD), we can see a third case, SET’s that are first principles of reasoning antecedent to proof and which therefore inescapably pervade our reasoning, including proofs and [attempted] dis-proofs:

DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV: How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

These examples and others that could be brought forward show that SET’s are true, and for one with adequate experience, background and insight to understand, will be seen as necessarily true once understood. That is, the attempted denial is in some way immediately, manifestly absurd so that the certainty of the SET is assured.

Thus, SET’s are objective, warranted to full certainty.

Which makes them suspect to those enamoured with today’s all too common relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. Clearly though if SET’s have been demonstrated — as we saw — then the claim or suggestion that truth is a perception or agreement or feeling regarding an opinion only . . . true to me or to us, that’s all . . . manifestly fails.

Starting with, 2 + 3 = 5 and with, error undeniably exists or that we are undeniably self-aware (conscious) and able to reason responsibly. Illustrating, by contrast with a rock (even one formed into computer hardware!):

However, as the Angelic Doctor long ago noted, having adequate background and inclination to understand and acknowledge the force of a SET can be an issue. Indeed, the case with Epictetus’ interlocutor shows that one may have to be educated to be able to understand a SET. (Recall, we have to be taught basic addition and multiplication facts.)

Epictetus also shows that one might have to be corrected regarding a SET. The silence in response suggests, too, that such correction may not be welcome.

For sure, self-evidence does not mean utterly simple and obvious to one and all.

We may now expand:

SELF-EVIDENT TRUTHS — CHARACTERISTICS:

1] A SET is just that, true, it accurately describes actual states of affairs, e.g. split your fingers on one hand into a 2-cluster and a 3-cluster, then join, you necessarily have a 5-cluster, || + ||| –> ||||| accurately describes a state of affairs.

2] Further, a SET is understandable to anyone of appropriate experience and maturity to have formed the basic concepts and to therefore recognise the sentences expressing it.

3] A SET, is then recognisable as not only true but necessarily and manifestly true given its substance, though of course some may try to evade it or deflect it.

4] That necessity is backed up by a certainty mechanism, specifically that the attempted denial immediately manifests a patent absurdity, not by step by step reduction such as incomensurateness of the side and diagonal of a square, but blatant absurdity manifest on inspection.

5] Where such patent absurdities of denial may come in various forms, e.g.:

– Absurd incoherence or blatant error [ 2 + 3 = 4 X],
– undeniability [E= error exists, ~E is a claim it is error to assert E, so E is undeniable],
– inescapability [Epictetus’ interlocutor who tried to demand a logical proof of the necessity of logic . . . and — yes — the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties of reason, even in the face of an ongoing campaign to dismiss and sideline . . . to truth, to right reason, to prudence (including, warrant), to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc . . . where, moral truths are truths regarding states of affairs involving oughtness, i.e. duty — we ought to respect the life, body, freedom and dignity of a young child walking home from school, never mind convenient bushes and dark impulses in our hearts],
– blatant self-referential absurdity [e.g. trying to deny one’s self-aware consciousness and the associated testimony of conscience or crushing of conscience],
– moral absurdity [trying to evade the message of the sadly real world case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child]
– etc, there is no end to the rhetoric of evasion.

6] So, SET’s are not private subjective, GIGO-limited, readily dismissible opinions or dubious notions. They are objective and in fact warranted to certainty backed up by patent absurdity on attempted denial. More than objective, they are certainly true, and especially as regards first principles and first duties of right reason, they are inescapably authoritative and antecedent to reasoned thought or argument.

7] Indeed, self-evident first truths and duties of reason are before proof and beyond refutation. The attempt to object or evade, inescapably, implicitly appeals to their authority in attempting to get rhetorical traction, and attempts to prove equally cannot escape their priority, the first truths and duties are part of the fabric of the attempted proof. So, we are duty bound to acknowledge them, to be coherently rational.

Of course, we are always free to choose to be irrational and/or irresponsible. And others are equally free to note the fact and duly reckon the loss of credibility. Where, cheap shot turnabout projections only confirm the loss of credibility.

As a final point, SET’s are relatively rare, so rare in fact that they cannot by themselves frame a worldview or school of thought. So, what we use them as is plumb lines that test our thinking, especially when we are tempted to make a crooked yardstick into our imposed standard for what political correctness, newspeak word magic, agit prop and lawfare call truth, right, rights, tolerance, conspiracy theories, follow the science, X-phobias, facts, knowledge etc. So, pardon another oldie but goodie:

Self-evident truths are important and precious. Let us therefore prize and use them aptly. END

Comments
KF wants us to accept as ‘fact’, a statement by a single subject which is fundamentally unverifiable by others. - - - - ** I, KF, am self-aware ** is a claim about a fundamentally private experience which can neither be observed nor measured by others. IOWs a claim by one person unverifiable by others. However, KF wants it to be a ‘fact’. What would be the consequence if a claim by one person unverifiable by others, would be considered to be a ‘fact’? For one thing, all hell would break loose in the justice system. But I cannot deny my self-awareness, so it self-evident to me That doesn’t help us verify your claim But other persons make similar claims about their self-awareness True, but your claim about your self-awareness and a claim of another person about his self-awareness are not claims about one thing, instead these are claims about two separate things.Origenes
December 23, 2021
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F/N: subjectivism etc in the other part of axiology, aesthetics, is equally suspect. No wonder ugliness has so often been imposed on the public through architectural eyesores in the name of beauty in the eyes of certain beholders. The ruin of London's skyline is a capital case in point. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2021
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What is 2 + 2 Mr Smith (on the rack) https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/lfp-44a-what-is-2-2-mr-smith-1984-as-demonstration-of-how-first-duties-and-first-truths-are-inextricably-intertwined/kairosfocus
June 13, 2021
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SB &KM, it is obvious that we are seeing yet another side-track from a primary focus on the nature and relevance of self-evident truth into precisely the sort of debates on theology, exegesis etc that are not only beyond UD's remit and general expertise [where, as noted there are other fora for such discussions and where links that provide a balancing picture have clearly been consistently ignored], lead only into polarisation, poisoning and clouding the atmosphere, frustrating discussion on the priority issue for restoring soundness to civilisation. Where, SB's counsels on lack of a balanced informed basis on the part of KM (and others led to think like that) are in order so the pushing of flawed distractive arguments should be set aside. Whatever its merits, if the tertiary matter is to be further discussed towards a better balance, another forum would be advisable; though, SB may wish to provide some links. Meanwhile, it is quite clear that the substantial matters on the table here are about self-evident truth, which is shown to exist by cases in the OP and such are drawn out in terms of the structure of a SET. That there are moral SETs and moral absurdities is clear from the case of the sadly real world matter of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child. An existence argument in 42 above shows that the attempt to deny objective moral truths is self-defeating as it is itself a claimed objective moral truth. Likewise, in 49, it was drawn out that once reasonable ends are recognised, moral duties are owed to any number of entities, starting with oneself etc, where evils frustrate or pervert good ends. The general problem is not with warrant for SETs or even moral SETs, it is that such does not fit with currently dominant, ill advised cultural themes and agendas tied to radical relativism, subjectivism [not, subjectivity] and emotivism; which all fail as accounts for truth, knowledge, right, law etc. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2021
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Sandy, the case of what is 2+2 Mr Smith is already on the table, showing the direct connexion between mere error and evil imposition in defiance of duties of justice. Just, the inconvenient relevance is being side-stepped as usual. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2021
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WordFence is up to problems again.kairosfocus
June 13, 2021
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2+3=5 the result is forced. It is equally logically valid to say a painting is beautiful or ugly.
It is not shown that getting a sum wrong, that 3+2=4, is immoral. It is just not logical.
:)))Sandy
June 12, 2021
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SNIP, see belowkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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Karen:
You’re statement was not “Karen is disgusted by the God she finds in the Old Testament”, it was, “they hold God and his moral universe in contempt”.
Well, I did change the emphasis somewhat in my latest statement, so I can grant you some slack in that context. However, the God of the Old Testament that you so disapprove of is the same God that created and designed the moral universe that I was alluding to. As it says in Scripture, " God created the heavens and the earth." Like it or not, that is the God that you attacked. It's all on the record, and quite a record it is.
You might be surprised to find that not everyone has the same views of “God” as you do.
No surprise at all. I think that the God of the Old Testament was justified in his every act. You think He is (was) a murderer. Obviously, we do not have the same view.
But yeah, no problem being disgusted by what some Old Testament writers claim God commanded in the Old Testament.” No problem at all.
Right. You made it clear that their report was, in your judgment, the same as saying that God is (was) a murderer. That was your mistake. It isn't the same thing at all. Not all killings are murders. Even humans are permitted to kill if there is a good reason for it.
You are free to believe in whatever description of God you want. Nobody here has ever said otherwise.
How open minded you are for granting me permission to think that the God of the Old Testament had good reasons for taking back his gift of life in some cases. How closed minded you are for not knowing about those reasons.
Again, your post proving this is a religious thread masquerading as a philosophy thread.
I have never used religious arguments to support my views on the natural moral law. I don't need them. You are the one who kept going on and on about an evil God without having the slightest idea about why you might be wrong about that. You should be ,more circumspect when making statements that are not fully informed, especially when they are being used as a calculated distraction away from the natural law argument.StephenB
June 12, 2021
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KM, your antipathies are showing. Again, I point you to the Milada Horakova story, we are dealing here with lessons written in blood and tears. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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SB, You're statement was not "Karen is disgusted by the God she finds in the Old Testament", it was, "they hold God and his moral universe in contempt". Changing the goalposts. You might be surprised to find that not everyone has the same views of "God" as you do. But yeah, no problem being disgusted by what some Old Testament writers claim God commanded in the Old Testament." No problem at all. which is also the God who designed the universe and its moral order. A bald assertion. You are free to believe in whatever description of God you want. Nobody here has ever said otherwise. Again, your post proving this is a religious thread masquerading as a philosophy thread.Karen McMannus
June 12, 2021
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SB: By their own admission, they hold God and his moral universe in contempt. Karen McMannus:
Not me.
Clearly, Karen is disgusted by the God she finds in the Old Testament, which is also the God who designed the universe and its moral order. Let’s check the record. Karen McMannus (alluding to that same God, in particular the one described in the books of Samuel and Numbers)
“the fact that some of you people can go along with the murder of children in the name of your God’s desires proves that you don’t believe killing babies is “self evidently wrong”
Karen McMannus on another occasion::
What’s the difference between people who believes this stuff and the World Trade Center terrorists? Nothing. It’s murder in the service of their belief of what they think their “God” wants.
Karen McMannus, popping off again:
… the fact that some of you people can go along with the murder of children in the name of your God’s desires proves that you don’t believe killing babies is “self evidently wrong.” If it were self evidently wrong, it would always be self-evidently wrong.
On another occasion, she writes this,:
You know damn well you don’t believe that really happened. So stop making excuses for these idiotic fictions that you don’t believe.
And again, and in another place, she writes,
You believe that your God commanded it, as the text claims?
To show that she feels the same way about the God of the New Testament, she writes this
And some people think the marvelous Creator will torment people forever Aren’t you embarrassed by that idea?
Is this the same Karen McMannus who just said, “not me.”StephenB
June 12, 2021
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MNY, should carries the full force of sacred duty, duty written and underscored in blood and tears. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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WJM, you really need to ponder the Horakova case, to see the force of the issues at stake, real world and ending in judicial torture-murder. Those are the sorts of things that haunt me, having lived through a situation that could well have ended like that. These are not rhetorical games or ivory tower issues, we are dealing with lessons paid for in blood and tears. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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You are still only saying, one should care to follow logic. It is not shown that getting a sum wrong, that 3+2=4, is immoral. It is just not logical. The term wrong here essentially refers to, does not compute. What is very bad, is that you disregard the logic of subjectivity. A subjective opinion is formed by choice, and expresses what it is that makes a choice. Which means that to be forced to say a painting is beautiful, provides a logically invalid opinion, because of it not being chosen, in spontaneous expression of emotion with free will. So why do you throw out this logic, in saying you follow logic? You only follow the logic of things being forced, and aren't dealing with the logic of choice. 2+3=5 the result is forced. One could also make an example of choosing between 1 and 2. If you then choose 3, it is illogical, same as answering 4 was illlogical. And ofcourse, morality applies to choices, not to things forced. If someone chooses 1 instead of 2, then one can choose either opinion that 1 was chosen out of evil or goodness. Both options would be equally logically valid. It is equally logically valid to say a painting is beautiful or ugly.mohammadnursyamsu
June 12, 2021
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WJM:
Let’s say there is such a thing as a good and a moral code. Why is it my duty to pursue/honor it? Why should I?
I dealt with the moral code @ 129, so now I will take up the good In this section. Not much needs to be said except that one ought to do what is good for him. Again, this is self evident. It is better to pursue individual goods such as life, procreation, knowledge, society, and reasonable conduct than the corresponding evils, such as death, sterility, ignorance, isolation, and unreasonable conduct. I don't know what else to say to someone, like yourself, who denies the existence of these particular goods, except to say what I have always said: You have chosen to be irrational by denying what is obviously true.StephenB
June 12, 2021
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SB: By their own admission, they hold God and his moral universe in contempt. Not me. And not WJM or anyone else as far as I can tell. I've stated a few times in effect that this thread and the other one are really religious threads thinly disguised as philosophy. Nothing wrong with religious threads. But there's no reason for the thin disguise. I can't imagine that it's helpful to anyone in the "real world." WJM: I appreciate your participation. It was very enjoyable and it helped me clarify several things, at least for myself. Amen.Karen McMannus
June 12, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, it’s over ...
Yes, I agree. I appreciate your participation. It was very enjoyable and it helped me clarify several things, at least for myself.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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SB said:
By their own admission, they hold God and his moral universe in contempt.
That never happened, as far as I remember.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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SB, absurdity is absurdity, one of the features of SETs is attempted denial -- logical sense -- immediately goes there. It's sad we are here but we are. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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WJM, it's over:
The case is over and 1984 is satire not an instruction manual https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJz77y4d_JA . It does however manage to show in a few moments what Havel wrote out in detail in his epochal Power of the Powerless https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/wp-content/uploads/1979/01/the-power-of-the-powerless.pdf — compare the Green Grocer posting slogans in the Window to what the rack did to Winston Smith. More to the point, soberly ponder the fate of Milada Horakova at the hands of real totalitarians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milada_Hor%C3%A1kov%C3%A1 Straight, truthful, honest thinking as duty and justice as duty are inseparable; with our safety in the balance, this is not just empty games with words, there are lessons bought with blood and tears here. In that context, you already know you cannot but appeal to the Ciceronian duties even to object to them.
That's the crumbling cliff you and too many others are dancing on the edge of, KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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WJM:
Let’s say there is such a thing as a good and a moral code. Why is it my duty to pursue/honor it? Why should I?
Because, as I explained, the ought to ethic is inherent in the moral code; it is built into the mandate; they cannot be logically separated. By definition, the moral code says you "ought to" follow it, which is the same as saying that you have a duty to follow it, which is the same as saying that you have a moral responsibility to follow it, which is the same as saying that you have a moral obligation to follow it.StephenB
June 12, 2021
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WJM, you are going in rhetorical circles.
There's nothing about my argument that is rhetorical except the question I asked in #99. I've established what conditions are necessary to show that a duty exists. You are attempting to make the case that such conditions are not necessary for a duty to be known as such. A "duty" without (1) an authority that holds people accountable, and (2) consequences for doing or not doing my duty, is not a duty by any definition of the word. A "sense of duty" is not an actual duty. An inescapable behavior is not a duty. Common behaviors and reactions do not reveal a duty. Conscience does not reveal a duty. You refuse to answer #99. It's a simple question about whether or not those conditions are necessary for a duty to exist. As I said, that's a rhetorical question, which drives home the point: of course they are. Jerry could not even formulate his rebuttal without reference to the very conditions he says are not necessary. SB made a better attempt, but so far has not said why I have a "duty" to what he calls "the good," or why I should do my duty. Those questions cannot be answered absent the two necessary conditions I listed. The problem is, admitting it destroys your entire argument and demonstrates that a duty cannot be "self-evident." An actual duty is only evident in light of the necessary conditions.William J Murray
June 12, 2021
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Jerry, denial. KF PS: Cognitive dissonance. PPS: yes collective survival and thriving are naturally evident ends, as is fulfillment of potential requiring an environment reflecting the civil peace of justice. Justice cannot be separated from duties, including to honesty and truth, right reason and prudence. This is not, inverted broomstick balancing on a fiery jet highly nonlinear system rocket science.kairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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we are dealing with denial at this point
No, they don’t believe what they say. Nobody could be this stupid. They are just trying to cause aggravation. That is their only goal. Which is why I recommended they be ignored. That way there might be something accomplished. For example, I bring up survival as an example of an innate objective. It might be useful to explore all that is involved in this. But no, the discussion gets bogged down in absurdities. What other objectives are built in is another area to explore. The real question is why are they doing this? They will never tell you. We can guess.jerry
June 12, 2021
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Jerry, we are dealing with denial at this point. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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He doesn’t seem to understand what the discussion is about.
Why don’t you clearly state what the discussion is about? Mocking doesn’t get it done. Until you do, I will define it as I understand it. I understand that it is about whether certain behaviors are necessary to fulfill objectives that are innate in humans. If so, they are obligatory and a term commonly used for such is “duty.” These obligatory behaviors are obvious and self evident in that they are necessary to reach the innate objective. I gave one such objective as survival. Then all behaviors that are necessary for survival are obligatory. For example, two self evident obligatory behaviors are eating and drinking. The OP is about self evident truths. A self evident truth is that humans seek survival. So does every other species on the planet.jerry
June 12, 2021
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KM, Much the same applies to you:
The case is over and 1984 is satire not an instruction manual https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJz77y4d_JA . It does however manage to show in a few moments what Havel wrote out in detail in his epochal Power of the Powerless https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/wp-content/uploads/1979/01/the-power-of-the-powerless.pdf — compare the Green Grocer posting slogans in the Window to what the rack did to Winston Smith. More to the point, soberly ponder the fate of Milada Horakova at the hands of real totalitarians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milada_Hor%C3%A1kov%C3%A1 Straight, truthful, honest thinking as duty and justice as duty are inseparable; with our safety in the balance, this is not just empty games with words, there are lessons bought with blood and tears here. In that context, you already know you cannot but appeal to the Ciceronian duties even to object to them.
That is the wild fire you are playing with, that is the crumbling cliff-edge you are dancing on. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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WJM: Know how you can recognize what is either self-evidently or necessarily true? When you can’t even argue against a thing without employing the very thing you’re arguing against to make your case. I literally LOL'd when I read what Jerry wrote. Both items #1 and #2 started with an "if" which grounds what I call a "relative duty" of a preferred outcome. He doesn't seem to understand what the discussion is about. I'm thinking of making him the thread poster boy. :)Karen McMannus
June 12, 2021
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WJM, you are going in rhetorical circles. Above such things were addressed in 42 and 49, and your response was, bravo. The case is over and 1984 is satire not an instruction manual https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJz77y4d_JA . It does however manage to show in a few moments what Havel wrote out in detail in his epochal Power of the Powerless https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/wp-content/uploads/1979/01/the-power-of-the-powerless.pdf -- compare the Green Grocer posting slogans in the Window to what the rack did to Winston Smith. More to the point, soberly ponder the fate of Milada Horakova at the hands of real totalitarians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milada_Hor%C3%A1kov%C3%A1 Straight, truthful, honest thinking as duty and justice as duty are inseparable; with our safety in the balance, this is not just empty games with words, there are lessons bought with blood and tears here. In that context, you already know you cannot but appeal to the Ciceronian duties even to object to them. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2021
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