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It’s all about information, Professor Feser

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Over at his blog, Professor Edward Feser has been writing a multi-part critique of Professor Alex Rosenberg’s bestselling book, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions. Rosenberg is an unabashed defender of scientism, an all-out reductionist who doesn’t believe in a “self”, doesn’t believe we have thoughts that are genuinely about anything, and doesn’t believe in free will or morality. Instead, he advocates what he calls “nice nihilism.” In the last line of his book, Rosenberg advises his readers to “Take a Prozac or your favorite serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and keep taking them till they kick in.”

Edward Feser has done an excellent job of demolishing Rosenberg’s arguments, and if readers want to peruse his posts from start to finish, they can read them all here:

Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six

Professor Rosenberg’s argument that Darwinism is incompatible with God

In his latest installment, Professor Feser takes aim at an argument put forward by Rosenberg, that Darwinism is incompatible with the idea that God is omniscient. In his reply to Rosenberg, Feser also takes a swipe at Intelligent Design, about which I’ll have more to say below. In the meantime, let’s have a look at Rosenberg’s argument against theistic evolution.

Rosenberg argues as follows: Darwinian processes, being non-teleological, do not aim at the generation of any particular kind of species, including the human species. What’s more, these processes contain a built-in element of irreducible randomness: variation. Mutations are random, and no one could have known in advance that evolution would go the way it did. Therefore if God had used such processes as a means of creating us, He could not have known that they would be successful, and therefore He would not be omniscient.

In his response, Feser criticizes Professor Rosenberg’s argument on several grounds, arguing that:

(i) belief in the God of classical theism does not logically entail that the emergence of the human race was an event planned by Him (i.e. God might have intentionally made the cosmos, but we might have been an accident);

(ii) God may have intended that the universe should contain rational beings (who possess the ability to reason by virtue of their having immortal souls) without intending that these beings should be human beings, with the kind of body that Homo sapiens possesses – hence our bodies may be the result of an accidental process;

(iii) if you believe in the multiverse (which Feser doesn’t but Rosenberg does), it is perfectly consistent to hold that while the evolution of Homo sapiens may have been improbable in any particular universe, nevertheless it would have been inevitable within some universe; and

(iv) in any case, the probabilistic nature of Darwinian processes does not rule out divine intervention.

Professor Feser’s big beef with Rosenberg’s argument: Divine causality is of a different order from that of natural causes

But Professor Feser’s chief objection to Rosenberg’s anti-theistic argument is that it ignores the distinction between Divine and creaturely causality. At this point, Feser takes pains to distinguish his intellectual position from that of the Intelligent Design movement. He remarks: “What Aristotelian-Thomistic critics of ID fundamentally object to is ID’s overly anthropomorphic conception of God and its implicit confusion of primary and secondary causality.” (I should point out in passing that Intelligent Design is a scientific program, and as such, it makes no claim to identify the Designer. Nevertheless, many Intelligent Design proponents would be happy to refer to this Designer as God.)

God, argues Feser, is like the author of a book. Intelligent natural agents (e.g. human beings) are the characters in the story, while sub-intelligent agents correspond to the everyday processes described within the story. The key point here is that God is outside the book that He creates and maintains in existence (i.e. the cosmos), while we are inside it. God’s causality is therefore of an entirely different order from that of creatures. To say that God intervened in the history of life in order to guarantee that Homo sapiens would emerge (as Rosenberg seems to think that believers in God-guided evolution are bound to believe) is tantamount to treating God like one of the characters in His own story. In Feser’s words, it “is like saying that the author of a novel has to ‘intervene’ in the story at key points, keeping events from going the way they otherwise would in order to make sure that they turn out the way he needs them to for the story to work.” In reality, authors don’t need to intervene into their stories to obtain the outcomes they want, and neither need we suppose that God intervened in the history of life on Earth, so as to guarantee the emergence of human beings.

Feser then argues that things in the world derive their being and causal power from God, just as the characters in a story only exist and alter the course of events within the story because the author of the story wrote it in a way that allows them to do so. For this reason, Feser has no philosophical problem with the notion of Darwinian processes being sufficient to generate life, or biological species such as Homo sapiens. Causal agents possesss whatever powers God wants them to have, and their (secondary) causality is genuine, and perfectly compatible with the (primary) causality of God, their Creator. Just as “it would be absurd to suggest that in a science fiction novel in which such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species, but rather the author of the story who does so and merely made it seem as if Darwinian processes had done it,” so too, “it is absurd to suggest that if God creates a world in which human beings come about by natural selection, He would have to intervene in order to make the Darwinian processes come out the way He wants them to, in which case they would not be truly Darwinian.”

The problem isn’t one of insufficient causal power in Nature; it’s all about information

When I read this passage, I thought, “Aha! Now I see why Professor Feser thinks Intelligent Design proponents have got the wrong end of the stick. Now I see why he thinks we are committed to belief in a tinkering Deity who has to intervene in the natural order in order to change it.” For Feser inadvertently revealed two very interesting things in his thought-provoking post.

The first thing that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed was that he thinks that the difficulty that Intelligent Design proponents have with Darwinian evolution has to do with power – in particular, the causal powers of natural agents. As an Aristotelian-Thomist, Feser sees no difficulty in principle with God granting natural agents whatever causal powers He wishes, so long as they are not powers that only a Creator could possess. Why could not God therefore give mud the power to evolve into microbes, and thence into biological species such as Homo sapiens?

But the problem that Intelligent Design advocates have with this scenario has nothing to do with the powers of causal agents. Rather, it’s all about information: complex specified information, to be precise. By definition, any pattern in Nature that is highly improbable (from a naturalistic perspective) but is nevertheless capable of being described in a few words, instantiates complex specified information (CSI). So the philosophical question we need to address here is not: could God give mud the power to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man, but rather: could God give mud the complex specified information required for it to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man?

The answer to this question, as Edward Feser should be aware from having read Professor Michael Behe’s book, The Edge of Evolution (Free Press, 2007, pp. 238-239), is that Intelligent Design theory is perfectly compatible with such front-loading scenarios. Indeed, Behe argues that God might have fine-tuned the initial conditions of the universe at the Big Bang, in such a way that life’s subsequent evolution – and presumably that of human beings – was inevitable, without the need for any subsequent acts of God.

A second possibility is that God added complex specified information to the universe at some point (or points) subsequent to the Big Bang – e.g. at the dawn of life, or the Cambrian explosion – thereby guaranteeing the results He intended.

A third possibility is that the universe contains hidden laws, as yet unknown to science, which are very detailed, highly elaborate and specific, unlike the simple laws of physics that we know. On this scenario, complex specified information belongs to the very warp and woof of the universe: it’s a built-in feature, requiring no initial fine-tuning.

Personally, my own inclination is to plump for the second scenario, and say that we live in a cosmos which is made to be manipulated: it’s an inherently incomplete, open system, and the “gaps” are a vital part of Nature, just as the holes are a vital feature of Swiss cheese. I see no reason to believe in the existence of hidden, information-rich laws of the cosmos, especially when all the laws we know are low in information content; moreover, as Dr. Stephen Meyer has pointed out in his book, Signature in the Cell, all the scientific evidence we have points against the idea of “biochemical predestination”: simple chemicals do not naturally arrange themselves into complex information-bearing molecules such as DNA. I also think that front-loading the universe at the Big Bang would have required such an incredibly exquisite amount of fine-tuning on God’s part that it would have been much simpler for Him to “inject” complex specified information into the cosmos at a later date, when it was required. (When I say “at a later date”, I mean “later” from our time-bound perspective, of course, as the God of classical theism is timeless.) However, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Complex specified information has to come from somewhere

One thing I’m quite sure of, though: not even God could make a universe without finely-tuned initial conditions and without information-rich laws, that was still capable of generating life without any need for a special act of God (or what Intelligent Design critics derogatorily refer to as “Divine intervention”, “manipulation” or “tinkering”). The reason why this couldn’t happen is that complex specified information doesn’t come from nowhere. It needs a source. And this brings me to the second point that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed in his post: he seems to think that information can just appear in the cosmos wherever God wants it to appear, without God having to perform any specific act that generates it.

This is where the book metaphor leads Feser astray, I believe. The author of a book doesn’t have to specify exactly how the events in his/her story unfold. All stories written by human authors are under-specified, in terms of both the states of affairs they describe – e.g. what’s the color of the house at 6 Privet Drive, next door to Harry Potter’s house? – and in terms of the processes occurring within the story – e.g. how exactly do magic wands do their work in Harry Potter? What law is involved? J. K. Rowling doesn’t tell us these things, and I don’t think most of her readers care, anyway.

But here’s the thing: God can’t afford to be vague about such matters. He’s not just writing a story; He’s making a world. Everything that He brings about in this world, He has to specify in some way: what happens, and how does it happen?

One way in which God could bring about a result He desires is by specifying the initial conditions in sufficient detail, such that the result is guaranteed to arise, given the ordinary course of events.

A second way for God to bring about a result He wants is for Him to specify the exact processes generating the result, in such detail that its subsequent production is bound to occur. (On this scenario, God brings about His desired effect through the operation of deterministic laws.)

A third way for God to produce a desired effect is for Him to make use of processes that do not infallibly yield a set result – i.e. probabilistic occurrences, which take place in accordance with indeterministic laws, and which involve a certain element of what we call randomness. In this case, God would not only have to specify the probabilistic processes He intends to make use of, but also specify the particular outcome He desires these processes to generate. (This could be accomplished by God without Him having to bias the probabilities of the processes in any way: all that is needed is top-down causation, which leaves the micro-level probabilistic processes intact but imposes an additional macro-level constraint on the outcome. For a description of how this would work, see my recent post, Is free will dead?)

Finally, God may refuse to specify any natural process or set of initial conditions that could help to generate the result He desires, and instead, simply specify the precise spatio-temporal point in the history of the cosmos.at which the result will occur. That’s what we call an act of God, and in such a case, the result is said to be brought about purely by God’s will, which acts as an immediate efficient cause generating the effect.

But whatever the way in which God chooses to bring about the result He desires, He must make a choice. He cannot simply specify the effect He desires, without specifying its cause – whether it be His Will acting immediately on Nature to bring about a desired effect, or some natural process and/or set of conditions operating in a manner that tends to generate the effect. Whatever God does, God has to do somehow.

But couldn’t God make evolution occur as a result of a probabilistic process?

Let’s go back to the third way available to God for generating a desired result: namely, working through probabilistic processes. What does Intelligent Design theory have to say about this Divine modus operandi? Basically, what it says is that it is impossible for God to remain hidden, if He chooses this way of acting, and if the desired effect is both improbable (in the normal course of events) and capable of being described very briefly – in other words, rich in complex specified information. For even if the micro-level probabilities are in no way affected by His agency, the macro-level effect constitutes a pattern in Nature which we can recognize as the work of an intelligent agent, since it is rich in CSI.

Professor Feser, working from his authorial metaphor for God, seems to have overlooked this point. The human author of a story can simply write: “Y occurred, as a freakish but statistically possible result of process X.” Here, the author simply specifies the result he/she intends (effect Y) and the process responsible (probabilistic process X, which, as luck would have it, produced Y). Because the effect in the story (Y) is both the result of a natural process (X) occurring in the story, and the result (on a higher level) of the author’s will, it appears that nothing more needs to be said. Feser seems to think that the same holds true for effects brought about by God, working through probabilistic processes: they are both the work of Nature and the work of God. Hence, he believes, nothing prevents God from producing life by a Darwinistic process, if He so chooses.

Not so fast, say Intelligent Design proponents. Probabilistic processes have no inherent tendency to generate outcomes that can be concisely described in language. If an outcome that can be described in a very concise manner is generated by a probabilistic process, and if the likelihood of the outcome is sufficiently low, then it is simply wrong to put this down to the work of Nature. The real work here is done by God, the Intelligent Agent Who specified the outcome in question. It’s fundamentally wrong to give any credit to the natural probabilistic process for the result obtained, in a case like this: for even if God works through such a process, the process itself has no tendency to aim for concisely describable outcomes. God-guided evolution is therefore by definition non-Darwinian. Contrary to Feser, it is not absurd for Intelligent Design proponents to argue that when “such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species,” since Darwinian processes are inherently incapable of generating large amounts of complex specific information, and when we trace the evolution of any species back far enough, we will find that large amounts of complex specific information had to be generated.

Putting it another way: not even God could make an unintelligent natural process with a built-in tendency to hone in on outcomes having a short verbal description. Such a feat is logically impossible, because it would be tantamount to making an unintelligent process capable of making linguistic choices – which is absurd, because language is a hallmark of intelligent agents. Not even God can accomplish that which is logically imposible.

I hope Professor Feser now recognizes what the real point at issue is between Darwinism and Intelligent Design theory. I hope he also realizes that Intelligent Design is not committed to an anthropomorphic Deity, or to any particular Divine modus operandi. ID proponents are well aware of the distinction between primary and secondary causality; we just don’t think it’s very useful in addressing the problem of where the complex specified information in Nature came from. The problem here is not one of finding a primary (or secondary) cause that can generate the information, but rather one of finding an intelligent agent that can do so. Lastly, ID proponents do not think of God as a “tinkerer who cleverly intervenes in a natural order that could in principle have carried on without him,” for the simple reason that Intelligent Design is a scientific program concerned with the detection of patterns in Nature that are the result of intelligent agency, and not a metaphysical program concerned with the being of Nature as such. Metaphysical arguments that Nature depends for its being on God are all well and good, but they’re not scientific arguments as such. For this reason, these metaphysical arguments fall outside the province of Intelligent Design, although they are highly regarded by some ID proponents.

Is Variation Random?

Finally, I’d like to challenge the claim made by Professor Rosenberg and other Darwinists that biological variation is random. Stephen Talbott has skilfully dismantled this claim in a highly original article in The New Atlantis, entitled, Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness. Talbott takes aim at the oft-heard claim, popularized by Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, that Nature operates with no purpose in mind, and that evolution is the outcome of random variation, culled by the non-random but mindless mechanism of natural selection. Talbott’s scientific arguments against Dawkins and Dennett are devastating, and he makes a convincing scientific case that mutation is anything but random in real life; that the genomes of organisms respond to environmental changes in a highly co-ordinated and purposeful fashion; and that even the most minimal definition of random variation – i.e. the commonly held view that the chance that a specific mutation will occur is not affected by how useful that mutation would be – crumbles upon inspection, as the whole concept of “usefulness” or “fitness” turns out to be irretrievably obscure. At the end of his article, Talbott summarizes his case:

Here, then, is what the advocates of evolutionary mindlessness and meaninglessness would have us overlook. We must overlook, first of all, the fact that organisms are masterful participants in, and revisers of, their own genomes, taking a leading position in the most intricate, subtle, and intentional genomic “dance” one could possibly imagine. And then we must overlook the way the organism responds intelligently, and in accord with its own purposes, to whatever it encounters in its environment, including the environment of its own body, and including what we may prefer to view as “accidents.” Then, too, we are asked to ignore not only the living, reproducing creatures whose intensely directed lives provide the only basis we have ever known for the dynamic processes of evolution, but also all the meaning of the larger environment in which these creatures participate — an environment compounded of all the infinitely complex ecological interactions that play out in significant balances, imbalances, competition, cooperation, symbioses, and all the rest, yielding the marvelously varied and interwoven living communities we find in savannah and rainforest, desert and meadow, stream and ocean, mountain and valley. And then, finally, we must be sure to pay no heed to the fact that the fitness, against which we have assumed our notion of randomness could be defined, is one of the most obscure, ill-formed concepts in all of science.

Overlooking all this, we are supposed to see — somewhere — blind, mindless, random, purposeless automatisms at the ultimate explanatory root of all genetic variation leading to evolutionary change….

This “something random” … is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming everything else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the importance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.

My response to Rosenberg

I would like to briefly respond to Professor Rosenberg’s argument that belief in God is incompatible with Darwinism. He is right about one thing: not even God can use randomness to bring about highly specific results, without “injecting” the complex specified information that guarantees the production of the result in question. If you’re a thoroughgoing Darwinist who believes that evolutionary variation is inherently random and that Nature is a closed system, then there’s no way for God to do His work. However, on an empirical level, I see no reason to believe that evolutionary variation is inherently random: Talbott’s article, from which I quoted above, cites evidence that the effects of environmental change on an organism’s genome are highly co-ordinated by the organism itself. What’s more, recent scientific evidence that even the multiverse must have had a beginning, and that even the multiverse must have been exquisitely fine-tuned, points very strongly to the fact that Nature is not a closed system. (See my article, Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning”, which also contains links to my recent posts on cosmological fine-tuning.) And of course, Professor Feser has done an excellent job of expounding the metaphysical arguments showing that Nature is not self-sufficient, but requires a Cause.

Comments
Champignon,
In other words, if thinking is a physical process, then the difference between a person who uses one symbol-to-referent mapping and a person who uses a different mapping is simply a difference in brain states. Neither person’s brain states violate the laws of physics; they’re both compatible with natural law.
I agree that all of it operates within natural law and that none of it violates any laws of physics. Otherwise I would have to think that something bizarre and supernatural occurs every time I imagine a shopping list, write it down, and then go to the store and retrieve the physical items corresponding to my abstraction. You are missing the enormous difference between saying that something is compatible with natural law and that it can be explained by it. No one disputes that when a computer processes data and displays or prints output in symbols, what takes place is purely electronic. No one knows what goes on in the brain, but I don't doubt that it's chemicals and electricity. I'm stopping here instead of typing my next sentence. That natural laws do not instantiate symbolic relationships and abstraction has been explained a dozen times over by people better at it than me, and even then every attempt was made to confuse or change the subject rather than refute it. I don't expect anything different in this case.ScottAndrews2
February 2, 2012
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That leads back to biology, what you seem to be trying to lead this away from. The forms of proteins and the regulations of their growth are not an emergent property of genetic information.
Does that mean you finally have a theory for mapping sequences to function (not retrospectively)? And function to utility in a a changing ecosystem? You can design a protein or a regulatory function at the sequence level without copying an existing sequence and testing modifications? Without using GAs or directed evolution? I think that without resorting to spookiness, the term emergent means that the properties of a combination cannot be predicted from the properties of the components. Unless you have uncovered a theory of biological design, I think that fits biochemistry.Petrushka
February 2, 2012
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Champignon,
The program can follow the ordering scheme without making use of the concepts “greater than” and “less than”.
You're absolutely correct. Greater than and less than are just shorthand for the result of a comparison. It does not literally mean that the king is greater than the nine. It means that it is determined as having a higher sort order. But in real life, how do you think that programmers implement this? By specifying a set of rules for the comparison of every card to every other card? There might be cases where they actually do so. In those cases they are providing the program with the sort order. In most cases, however, this would be accomplished by assigning a numerical value to the card. (It depends entirely on the application.) Jack = 11, Queen = 12, and so forth. And then they are sorted by their numerical values. It really doesn't matter. In either case the computer is provided with the sort order. Yes, the cards are physically different from each other, but that physical difference means nothing at all unless someone assigns meaning to the symbols depicted. The very simple point I'm arguing against is your assertion that a computer can sort cards without some reference to the symbolic meanings given them. It doesn't matter if the computer calls it a King or assigns an arbitrary identifier to it. It cannot sort the cards without some form of input determining what order they should go in, because the sort order of the cards is not an emergent property of the cards. That leads back to biology, what you seem to be trying to lead this away from. The forms of proteins and the regulations of their growth are not an emergent property of genetic information. Neither is genetic information an emergent property of what it codes for. The illustration of the cards is quite simple and was not meant to be a 20-post diversion into hair-splitting over words. I would imagine someone debating whether the illustration is applicable. But within the context of the illustration itself, the point made with regard to the playing cards is clear unless you're determined to be confused by it. I'm going to try not to pay attention to any more trifling over it. I don't know if I'll succeed. I'm clearly not smart enough to know when to stop explaining the same thing over and over, and in doing so providing even more fodder for hair-splitting.ScottAndrews2
February 2, 2012
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I think the whole argument boils down to what David Abel calls the The Formalism > Physicality (F > P) Principle. It is only intelligence that in practice can be shown to be able to assign a particular meaning to a particular configuration of matter. In practice it is only intelligence that can then choose between various configurations selecting those that are 'good' based on the assigned meaning and filtering out others as 'bad'. Nature does not care about semantics. It can only provide constraints, not controls in the cybernetic sense. I.e. nature cannot itself organise processes that steer systems towards improved utility.Eugene S
February 2, 2012
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We would love to see an evolutionary hypothesis pertaining to the "how"- as in how did any bacterial flagellum evolve via stochastic processes? Ya see Liz, your position doesn't have any testable hypotheses and your complaining to the contrary doesn't do any good.Joe
February 2, 2012
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The words purposeful and intelligence are just labels we attach to what chemistry does when certain complex arrangements occur
Full stop. By the same logic, the word "Petrushka" as well as all he writes here on this blog are also just labels we attach to what chemistry does.Eugene S
February 2, 2012
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You are right: this discussion has gone on way too long on a simple point. The simple point is that Shapiro is MEGA-interesting as an evolutionary theorist, and when someone is interesting, I don’t give a fig whether or not his books or even his articles have been peer-reviewed. I want to hear the argument.
Me too. My only point in dispute was whether you have to read the books to understand the argument. My point, in the case of scientists, is that reading the papers is just as good, if not a better, way of understanding the argument. But if I'm impressed by a scientist's papers, I'm especially interested in reading his/her books, hence my current Amazon order. If you took from my words some kind of fetishistic fear of catching cooties from books, you couldn't be more wrong. And in fields in which I have no expertise (cosmology for instance!) I'd much rather read a book than a paper.
I’m sorry that you found Darwin’s Black Box very silly. But as I said before, you approach evolutionary questions with the mind of a population geneticist. All the population geneticists object to Behe. To get the force of Behe, you have to think like a biochemist, and/or like an engineer.
I dispute this. In any case, in background, I'm much closer to an engineer than to a population geneticist (I am most assuredly not a population geneticist). I think Behe's argument is flawed in many ways, one of which being that he seems not to understand the role of drift, so he would benefit from considering population genetics a little more) but it is not the only flaw in his argument, it's just one of the more egregious ones.
No good general answer to the theoretical problem he posed has yet been provided by the Darwinian [in my sense] camp.
I disagree. The theoretical problem he posed has been thoroughly dealt with (indeed, demonstrated to be not-a-problem). Specific challenges (how to account, step by step, for the evolution of certain allegedly IC biological features) have not been met, and never will be, to his satisfaction, because that would be like saying that Julius Caesar's mother never existed on the grounds that we have no minute by minute account of her life. Some details of history are not discoverable post hoc; the data simply is not there. But we cannot assume from the lack of data that the event did not occur. And to demonstrate that it could have occurred, we need to demonstrate that, in principle, the theoretical problem can be over come. This has been done.Elizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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Elizabeth, what you seemed to be saying, in a rather murky way, was that in the case of books, the author is the judge of his own merits, whereas in the case of journal articles, the author's merits are judged by others. And my point was that is false, or only true in cases where the publisher of the book does not ask for critical internal reviews of the manuscript before publishing it. I used the word "insinuated," because it seemed you were trying to imply something without making a direct case for it. But if it was just a case of awkward wording, I retract the term. Yes, publishers are out to make money, but some publishers are *also* out to maintain a reputation as publishers of quality scientific books rather than trash. Such publishers will ask for expert criticism of manuscripts before accepting them. I don't know if that was done in Shapiro's case, but you don't know that it wasn't. You are right: this discussion has gone on way too long on a simple point. The simple point is that Shapiro is MEGA-interesting as an evolutionary theorist, and when someone is interesting, I don't give a fig whether or not his books or even his articles have been peer-reviewed. I want to hear the argument. And as journal articles tend to be very dry and technical, focused on convincing specialists of one small point, whereas books are often broader in scope and aimed at bringing a wider-than-specialist audience on board, I'd far rather read a book than an article. But when I listen to you, I hear -- "Oooh, a BOOK? I don't normally trust (shudder!) BOOKS ... but in this case I guess I could make an exception." That's just bizarre to me. And you are representing this hesitation as a healthy scientific tendency. But evolutionary biologists, and others interested in questions of evolution and design etc. -- Dawkins, Miller, Coyne, Sean Carroll, H. Allen Orr, etc. -- read books on evolution all the time, without worrying about catching the Cooties from something that's not peer-reviewed. Sometimes, Elizabeth, you come across as a very strange person! I'm sorry that you found Darwin's Black Box very silly. But as I said before, you approach evolutionary questions with the mind of a population geneticist. All the population geneticists object to Behe. To get the force of Behe, you have to think like a biochemist, and/or like an engineer. (Denton, for example, is a biochemist who employs kindred arguments, and many ID proponents are engineers.) This tension between approaches existed long before our time -- it was present at the Wistar conference in 1966, and it will continue into the future, so you and I are not going to settle it here. In any case, I didn't find Behe's book "silly" at all. Imperfectly argued at points, certainly -- what book isn't? Certainly not silly. No good general answer to the theoretical problem he posed has yet been provided by the Darwinian [in my sense] camp. But don't worry, Elizabeth, because in fifty years, the Darwinian camp will be gone, and thus Behe's book, no longer having a target, will become irrelevant. You can take solace in that.Timaeus
February 2, 2012
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Golly I must have a sticky s key or something! "I meant paperssssssss" oops.Elizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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No, Bilbo, I can't. As I said, you seem to have completely missed my point.Elizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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It was a typo, Timaeus. Apologies. I meant "paper", specifically these fairly recent ones: http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro.2010.MobileDNA.pdf http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro.2009.GeneticsPerspective.pdf And other more technical papers that I am fortunate enough to have access to via my library.
Reviewers in my experience are not given a checklist of any formal set of items that have to be covered (spark plugs, tires, wiper blades, hinges, oil, radiator fluid — sheeesh!); their job is to comment on the general competence of the author in the subject area, the general argumentative quality of the work, and its original contribution to scholarship. Reviewers may if they wish append detailed comments wherever they see fit, but that is not their main job. Their main job is to ascertain that the work is overall competent and original.
Well, it may be slightly different in the humanities (I have only occasionally reviewed in the humanities) but the list is usually a little more specific in the sciences, and generally includes the request that reviewers to comment on whether the conclusions are justified by the evidence. What is also possibly different is that in the sciences, even if a paper is eventually accepted, it frequently (usually, in my experience) goes back and forth a few times until the reviewers are satisfied that their criticisms have been met. This sometimes includes re-analysis of the data, sometimes the collection of new data, sometimes a revision of conclusions, sometimes a more thorough review of the literature. In other words it's far more than just a vetting process, it's actually part of the writing process.
It is my understanding that science book publishers often seek advice of this sort. So your unclearly expressed insinuation in your second paragraph, that in the case of books, the author evaluates his own work, whereas in the case of journal articles, others evaluate his work, is simply not true — not for any publisher that seeks outside advice from experts in the author’s field. If you don’t want to call that “peer review” then fine. My point was that you do not know for certain that this was not done in Shapiro’s case. For all you know, the manuscript may have been read and praised by the Regius Professor of Zoology at Cambridge or the Emeritus Professor or Evolutionary Biology at Harvard. If this would not be good enough for you, because some detailed formal process was not followed, then I think you have an irrational fetish about such processes. I suggest you read Frank Tipler’s essay on the history of peer review in the sciences.
I'm getting a little fed up of your "insinuations" Timaeus. I did not "insinuate" any such thing, I merely stated what is a fact, that the publishers of a book are interested in selling a specific piece of writing - that book, whereas publishers of a journal are interested in producing a journal that contains highly cited and consistently excellent scientific papers. The motivations are quite different, and this is reflected in two very different editorial approaches. I am not saying that Shapiro's editors did not send his copy out to reviewers, they may well have done. More importantly, his publishers may have commissioned - or been enthusiastic about - Shapiro's book because of Shapiro's existing reputation as a highly regarded and copiously published scientist. It is not to denigrate an author because what he has produced is a book. My very simple point is that if you want to know what a scientist has actually found, or even, sometimes, what his view of the field is (review articles by eminent scientists are very useful) then peer-reviewed articles, as well as being more accessible, generally, are often a better way of finding out than reading a book. Or, at least, as good. But this argument is really very silly, because I have no problem in reading Shapiro's book, and have wanted to for some time, and I'm hoping it arrives today. However, I'm very uninclined to read any more stuff by Meyer, or, indeed, by Behe, given what I have read so far, and by the few readily accessible public writings I have seen. I've read Darwin's Black Box. I thought it was very silly.Elizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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Here's where I think you're getting hung up, Scott. While the mapping of symbols to referents isn't an invariant under natural law, that doesn't mean that such mappings can't be explained by natural law. In other words, if thinking is a physical process, then the difference between a person who uses one symbol-to-referent mapping and a person who uses a different mapping is simply a difference in brain states. Neither person's brain states violate the laws of physics; they're both compatible with natural law.champignon
February 1, 2012
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Scott:
I would say that if something can sort playing cards it must have some input (that’s where I used the word “awareness”) telling it which cards are greater to or lesser than others.
More precisely, there needs to be an ordering scheme for the algorithm to follow. This is not a quibble. The program can follow the ordering scheme without making use of the concepts "greater than" and "less than". To reiterate:
Note that the program [in my example] is not “aware” that it’s looking at an image of a card, that the card has symbols on it, that the meaning of one of the symbols is “King”, or that “King” comes after “9?. Yet it still sorts the cards into the correct order, which according to you should be impossible...
You continue:
I don’t see what’s so complicated. The meaning of the symbols on the cards, including the digits, is entirely arbitrary.
Yes, in the sense that if we a) define a new set of symbols in one-to-one correspondence with the existing set, b) replace the old symbols on each card with their new counterparts, and c) replace the old symbols with the new symbols in our ordering rules, then if we order the cards by symbols, they will end up in the same order as before.
They have no emergent property by which they can be sorted.
Yes, if you mean that the ordering rules aren't determined by the geometry of the symbols themselves.
Clearly you feel that you have something remarkable up your sleeve. It almost doesn’t matter because I’d have to scroll up past 50 posts to remember what the point about the cards was.
It would have gone a lot faster if you hadn't been so resistant to admitting error.
It was the difference between sorting rocks by size and sorting cards. Size is a property of a rock. One is or is not bigger than the other.
Yes, unless they're the same size.
...the meaning of any symbol can be changed at will without requiring a change to the behavior of natural law.
Yes. In other words, the mapping of a symbol to its referent is not an invariant under natural law.
The only refutation to any of this is to deny free will...
No. If you change the meaning of a symbol "at will", it just means that you act in accordance with your will. It doesn't mean that your will is free.
I’m just not interested in that discussion. But at least I’ve provided you with the coherent counterargument you couldn’t find yourself. Don’t say I never gave you anything.
You give crappy presents, Scott. :-)champignon
February 1, 2012
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Scott,
No, I’d rephrase it.
Thank you.
Computers aren’t aware. Programmers speak that way metaphorically, but I can see you getting ready to spring on my word choice again.
Says the person who sprang on me for using that word, even though I was only echoing you, and even though I put the word in quotes! I wrote:
Note that the program is not “aware” that it’s looking at an image of a card...
You pounced on me...
Programs aren’t “aware” of anything. What does that have to do with anything?
...totally forgetting that you had written this:
Anything that sorts them, human or otherwise, must have awareness of the meaning of the symbols printed on them. [Emphasis mine]
LOL. Scott, when you wind yourself up like that, you make silly mistakes. Try to relax a little.champignon
February 1, 2012
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No, I'd rephrase it. Computers aren't aware. Programmers speak that way metaphorically, but I can see you getting ready to spring on my word choice again. I would say that if something can sort playing cards it must have some input (that's where I used the word "awareness") telling it which cards are greater to or lesser than others. In the case of a program that information could reside at one of several levels. Most modern programmers don't have to specify the order of numerals. But the information is still there. Any mapping between a numeric value and the appearance of the digits must be specified. The mapping between numeric values and their stored representation also requires specification. I don't see what's so complicated. The meaning of the symbols on the cards, including the digits, is entirely arbitrary. They have no emergent property by which they can be sorted. Clearly you feel that you have something remarkable up your sleeve. It almost doesn't matter because I'd have to scroll up past 50 posts to remember what the point about the cards was. It was the difference between sorting rocks by size and sorting cards. Size is a property of a rock. One is or is not bigger than the other. That a queen is greater than a jack or 7 is greater than 6 because they are chosen representations of numbers are both mental constructs. They are imagined properties. They are not emergent from any natural law. This is evident quite simply because the meaning of any symbol can be changed at will without requiring a change to the behavior of natural law. The only refutation to any of this is to deny free will, to determine that even our collective agreement on a set of symbols, which looks like imagination, is just a predictable set of chemical reactions across multiple organisms. Or we could just say that it's predictable but impossible to model so it just looks like free will. I'm just not interested in that discussion. But at least I've provided you with the coherent counterargument you couldn't find yourself. Don't say I never gave you anything.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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@Timaeus
It Matzke apologized and/or retracted an error, I salute him. I have never seen him do it here, or anywhere else. Maybe he has, but in my experience it is very atypical of his debating stance. Let’s hope the example you have given marks a change of attitude on his part. If it does, many ID proponents will respect him a lot more.
If??? The blog post in quesion was posted here at Uncommon Descent (see here). Hunter likes to drive UD traffic to his blog, so some of the comments end up over there, including Matzke's apology. Maybe you didn't see it in the post there, but I provided both the quote and the link to Matzke's apology. As for "many ID proponents will respect him a lot more", I think that is a fool's errand for Nick, or any of the thoughtful and experienced critics here. Civil discourse is its own reward, and I value content-rich and non-personal exchanges just as something I expect from myself, by my own standards (or at least the part of the conversation I control), but any critic who is gaining the respect of ID proponents here should be alarmed. If that's happening, you're very likely to be broadly mistaken, a coward or both. ID isn't young earth creationism, but the culture and advocacy dynamics are quite similar. YECs are more straightforward and honest with themselves and others about the kinds of positions they are defending, I'd say, but in any case, there has been a long procession of critics here ("Diffaxial", "Nakashima", "ROb"...) who've been polite and excrutiating careful not to step on the delicate egos and hair-trigger reflexes of the management and ID regulars here. There's a very strong, solid case that "tone" appeals are a trick here. No amount of bending over backwards (to the point of self-humiliation in the case of some of those posters, dealing with the likes of Joe and KairosFocus, etc.) will earn any "respect" worthy of the term. Instead, it's a way to dull an deflect criticism. Diffaxial, if you remember him, was positively withering, and yet, almost embarrassingly obsequious (made me cringe, any way). Didn't help. "Tone" appeals are a trap. If you are critic, and you are going to press your case on science, math, data models, papers, and hold the ID folks to their claims in similar ways critics are used to be held accountable, no "tone" can help you. "Respect" in the sense that ID advocates see you as non-threatening is a "badge of dishonor", if anything. Critics should (and I think largely do) post on the merits and with a focus on salient issues with the CONCEPTS of ID, and the logic and heuristics of ID with a tone that helps them make their point. That really is the most devastating way to deal with the ID advocates here. It's not for "respect from IDers". IDers, if they are paying attention, should be howling from the searing effects of real science and critical think and applied maths and all that being put their arguments. They SHOULD be, and often are, angry as hornets in a nest that got kicked over.
You say ID wallows in the culture war. I see. And the columns of Jeffrey Shallit, Mark Chu-Carroll, P. Z. Myers, Jason Rosenhouse, Larry Moran, etc., *never* stoop so low as to do that? No Wikipedia editor has *ever* let his personal hatred of ID bias his editing? Michael Shermer is always completely objective in his assessments of ID? The people at Biologos are completly above culture-war motivations? Ken Miller is completely above them? Eugenie Scott? Nick Matzke? Abbie Smith? Is the culture war all ID’s fault, then?
Of course not. I'm under no illusions about the nature of "war" as a two way or n-way engagement. P.Z. Myers can be brutal, over-the-top, outrageously offensive. But for all that, just to focus on Myers for the moment, Myers has strong redeeming qualities. He knows what he's talking about. He's proficient in knowledge building, he's a scientist. He's expert with the tools and methods of his profession. If I can agree that the science side of the war has plenty (or equal) share of culture war sins to admit to, the indictment of ID still stands, for it doesn't have a P.Z. Myers, it is culture war from start to finish. There is no "proficiency" that redeems ID, no science, no applications that contribute to knowledge. Culture war is the pinnacle for UD and ID. That's not the case for Jerry Coyne, or PZ Myers, or Larry Moran, or Nick Matzke. These other guys actually know what they're talking about in their respective domains, and can demonstrate it all day long. A friend of mine who is quite pro-ID recently told me, in response to a comment I made like this in response to a similar question from him that "We have Stephen Meyer, and he doesn't do the crap that Myers does!". That pretty much sums up the ID delusion right there, I think. Myers, for all his shenanigans, respects the serious enterprise of knowledge building and science. Stephen Meyer is polite con man, an elite subversion tool for science and human knowledge. I'd take the uncouth antics of PZ, combined with the earnest and sober engagement with the hard problems of real biology over the execrable sophistry of Meyer any day, even if Meyer never so much as called a critic a "jerk". That doesn't excuse abuses and bad behavior on the science side of the war. But it does identify redeeming substance and serious commitments to knowledge and critical thinking that ID eschews, so far as I can see, after following the movement for years. Dembski and this blog are the apotheosis of this problem in ID. Mike Gene and the crew over at Telic Thoughts, by contrast, have the same problem, but here problem is thick and rife.
Behe and Meyer are perfect gentlemen in the way they write and speak in public. One may disagree strongly with their positions, but one cannot fault their manners.
Being polite and having good manners is not sufficient, as good as those behaviors may be. Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis has been quite self-deprecating and polite the couple times I've heard him speak in person, quite congenial and pleasant in Q&A sessions with the crowd. That doesn't compensate for the heinous kinds of fraud Ken Ham tries to pull on the faithful who trust him (often very successfully). Meyer's no different, and no better than that. Much smoother, I'll grant, than Ham, who affects a more hill-billy vibe that works with the fundamentalist culture better, etc. Don't get me wrong, I can and do appreciate being polite. But that does not redeem being a huckster, a con man. I'm quite happy having lots of posters in the "Joe/Joseph" or KairosFocus mode. They are pretty much self-refuting, and are less than harmless, unwitting aids for the critics. Meyer, though, takes a keen and careful look, but when you do tease his stuff apart, it's a fairly potent bit of deception, equivocation, evasion. I can salute Meyer as an effective tool for the ID movement. But it's using a sharp able mind to subvert, denigrate, and thwart knowledge, reason, and other noble uses of his considerable capabilities. I'll leave off there. I'm tempted to tear into the objection about "intelligent design creationism", which is a term I have at length come to see as both empirically grounded and somewhat charitable. But enough for now.eigenstate
February 1, 2012
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Scott, Do you stand by the following statement, or do you wish to retract it?
Anything that sorts them, human or otherwise, must have awareness of the meaning of the symbols printed on them.
champignon
February 1, 2012
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Champignon, The first point on which you "corrected" me was merely a choice of words. You drilled into that and ignored the content. I don't see the point since I have no problem correcting a poor word choice. And yet for the third or fourth time you're still harping on it. With regard to the example of a computer sorting cards, that's why I wonder if you're playing a joke on me. It's easier to believe than that you're serious. It's okay. I like being right about as much as the next guy. I does get a little boring after a while. And if someone wants to wind me up by saying crazy stuff and watching me spout paragraphs of straight-faced responses, that's fine too. I don't take myself that seriously. And neither does anyone else. But you are scraping the bottom of the wrongness barrel. There must be plenty of computer programmers following this. Recognizing symbols is easy. There's been commercial software that converts scanned documents to text for a long time. But if any programmer would like to suggest how software might arrange symbols such as digits, letters, or playing cards in order without intelligent input to specify the meaning of the symbols and either how they are sorted or relate them to values which can be sorted, I'd love to hear it. Am I not putting myself out on a limb? There are plenty of better programmers than me. Don't forget that even the storage of the simplest values requires a degree of deliberate abstraction. It is impossible for the bits 1001 to represent nine unless someone determines that the first bit is 1, the second 2, the third 4, and the fourth 8. That even the most basic storage and manipulation of numbers requires that an intelligent agent assign values to bits makes it impossible for any process automated by a computer to act without the deliberate assignment of meaning to symbols. Your argument is denial of reality, as is your imagination that you have corrected me. I think we talk enough trash that when correction comes, it comes hard. I'm okay with that. If it's too much then I'll run off and hide in the woods, grow a big beard, and dwell among the bears and squirrels. But more likely I'll just retreat into awkward silence for a spell and hopefully come back a little bit smarter. If I were really smart I'd stand on the shore waiting for the tide to go out rather than struggling in vain to push against it. But I'm not.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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Elizabeth: You've twice now referred to Shapiro's "paper" in the singular, as if your notion of his view of evolution was based on only one paper. But you have also a couple of times said that you have been following Shapiro's ideas for some time, implying that you have based your ideas of him on more than one paper. Which is it? It would be pointless to get into a debate about what "peer review" means -- we spent too long on what "Darwinian" means already. I've done peer-reviewing for an academic journal, and my usage of the term comes from my experience there. Reviewers in my experience are not given a checklist of any formal set of items that have to be covered (spark plugs, tires, wiper blades, hinges, oil, radiator fluid -- sheeesh!); their job is to comment on the general competence of the author in the subject area, the general argumentative quality of the work, and its original contribution to scholarship. Reviewers may if they wish append detailed comments wherever they see fit, but that is not their main job. Their main job is to ascertain that the work is overall competent and original. It is my understanding that science book publishers often seek advice of this sort. So your unclearly expressed insinuation in your second paragraph, that in the case of books, the author evaluates his own work, whereas in the case of journal articles, others evaluate his work, is simply not true -- not for any publisher that seeks outside advice from experts in the author's field. If you don't want to call that "peer review" then fine. My point was that you do not know for certain that this was not done in Shapiro's case. For all you know, the manuscript may have been read and praised by the Regius Professor of Zoology at Cambridge or the Emeritus Professor or Evolutionary Biology at Harvard. If this would not be good enough for you, because some detailed formal process was not followed, then I think you have an irrational fetish about such processes. I suggest you read Frank Tipler's essay on the history of peer review in the sciences.Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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So other than humans or computers, can anyone think of another way to get our cards sorted in the right suit and order?Bilbo I
February 1, 2012
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Scott,
Are you winding me up?
No, I think you're doing a fine job of that by yourself. Why do you bother coming here if you find it so painful to be corrected? You made this statement:
The example of sorting cards is different, as they are identical with regard to any purely physical process.
I showed you that your statement was wrong. You agreed that it was wrong, and yet you blasted me for not assuming that you meant the exact opposite of what you wrote! You also claimed:
Anything that sorts them, human or otherwise, must have awareness of the meaning of the symbols printed on them.
I provided a detailed example showing why that statement is also false. Your response was to sputter about "inanity" and to complain that I'm "winding you up". It's very simple, Scott. If you don't want to be corrected, then either 1) don't say anything, or 2) make sure that what you say is correct. We've agreed that the first of your two statements is wrong. Do you agree that the second one is wrong, also?champignon
February 1, 2012
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Champignon, Are you winding me up?
For example, if one card matches pattern X, which happens to be an image of the King of Clubs, and another card matches pattern Y, which happens to be an image of the 9 of Clubs, then the card that matches pattern Y goes in front of the card that matches pattern X. Similar logic applies for every possible card pairing.
It doesn't matter if it starts with an image. Text processing can start with OCR. But how does it determine that the image of a king of clubs is "greater than" the image of the nine of clubs? Which one has more color? Which one is bigger? The king is still greater even if you print it real small and print the 9 real big. You can't compare their values until you match the images to the cards. And then you're not comparing the images. You're comparing the cards. And how does it know that the king is greater than the nine? Because you tell it so. Unless you tell it that the nine is greater, and then it is.
Note that the program is not “aware” that it’s looking at an image of a card
Programs aren't "aware" of anything. What does that have to do with anything? Given sufficient input, a program can identify a picture as being of a king of clubs, nine of clubs, a baseball, or a specific person. But the sort order between a king and a nine is whatever you or I say it is. So how do you think the computer can sort them without being told which is greater? That meaning is not intrinsic to the pictures, the arrangement of ink molecules, or the pronunciation of the words which varies from language to language. We're using kings and nines as an example because only one is a number. But it doesn't matter. A quantity of nine is greater than a quantity of five, but the expression 9 > 5 is only true if you assign a meaning to each symbol. Do you really think that any computer ever made the association between the symbol and the abstract concept or an actual quantity of something on its own? So would you care to explain again how a computer would sort them without input to specify what the symbols represent? Maybe you're missing this because it's built in to both hardware and software so that you no longer have to define it when writing new software. But somebody still had to do it.
How do you think they did it? Do you think there was something nonphysical about it? If so, how did the nonphysical entity interact with the physical brain to cause the player suggesting the change to discuss it with the others?
Sorry, I was so caught up in the inanity of explaining that the sort order of cards and of symbols is arbitrary and not an emergent property of the pictures on them or pictures of them that I forgot to answer this. What non-physical entity? I don't think there is anything non-physical about it. I told you two posts ago that I meant "natural laws," in the sense of undirected, not artificial. I said "physical laws" and that's not what I meant. You pointed it out abundantly and I corrected my choice of words.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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No, I don't think anyone is asking for anything like those specific steps from IDists, Timaeus. Just a hypothesis about how, in principle, the design process was implemented would be cool. Genomicus has stepped up to the plate with his frontloading hypothesis (although I think it is problematic wrt to testability) but it's a rare thing to see.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Ah yes, he did didn't he! Thanks for reminding me. Books aren't peer-reviewed, Timaeus, in anything like the way papers are. Sometimes experts will be sought to give their views, but the publisher is interested in a book that will sell, not a journal that has reliable good-quality papers. Not that I'm knocking books, it's just that in the pecking order, in the 21st century, peer-reviewed journals are the vehicle for dissemination of science. Not that peer-review is perfect, far from it, but it's a first pass, and almost all papers go through a rigorous editing process in the light of peer review, and the reviewing process itself is highly formalised, with specific categories of issues that the reviewer has to comment on. But I agree, obviously, that you can't get the whole thought of a writer from one article. On the other hand, if an author claims that his findings are X, in a book, and his papers, in the view of reader Y, do not indicate that his findings are X, X is not obliged to agree with the author that his findings are X. In other words, the beauty of scientific publishing is that papers are (or should be, if they get past peer-review) capable of being evaluated independently of the author's own evaluation. The reader should be given enough information that she can come to a different conclusion from the data than the author did. My conclusion, from Shapiro's paper, is that he is not proposing a mechanism for evolution that departs from what I mean by the "Darwinian" principle of heritable variance in reproductive success.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your posts (1.1.2.1.10 and 1.1.2.1.11). You were quite right about one thing: the sort order is irrelevant to computations of Shannon complexity. Mea culpa. However, I believe you were mistaken when you wrote:
Shannon information doesn’t care what order the items are arranged in, it only cares how many ways there are of arranging the items.
This is fine if all arrangements are equiprobable. But what if they’re not?
Exactly! In other words, in order to do the calculation for the quantity Dembski calls CSI, the "pattern that signifies intelligence" you have to know the probability of the observed pattern under the null. And Dembski makes absolutely no attempt to even begin to calculate that. And that's the gaping vacuum at the heart of ID - or at least at the heart of Dembski's ID.
In your case (Chesil beach), there is a natural biasing factor at work, causing the pebbles to be sorted in descending order of size.
Right. There's a "natural biasing factor". And so what if, for organisms there is also a "natural biasing factor"? Which is precisely what Darwinian evolution theory proposes! In other words, you can't infer intelligent design from CSI without calculating the probability under the null of Darwinian evolution! So Dembski is caught on the horns of a dilemma: either he assumes all sequences are equiprobable under the null, in which case Chesil beach has CSI, or he attempts to calculate the probability distribution of sequences under the null, in which case he has to calculate the non-flat distribution of sequences under all possible "natural" hypotheses, in which case his argument is entirely circular.
Another problem with your example is that your verbal description (which is supposed to roughly correspond to Kolmogorov complexity) doesn’t specify any particular arrangement of pebbles. It merely describes a generic feature of that arrangement: namely, that the pebbles tend to descend in order of size. If you wanted to describe a particular sequence of pebbles, however, you would need quite a lot of space to do so, unless it were a sequence in which the pebbles along the beach descended in perfect order of size – which is extremely unlikely to be the case. If they did, I’d suspect intelligent agency was at work:)
No, that doesn't get you off the hook, because Dembski doesn't require that the compressible sequence is the only compressible sequence, just one of the tiny proportion of sequences that are at least as compressible out of all possible sequences. And while the number of approximately linearly graded sequences there are on that beach, may be very large, it is an infinitessimal proportion of the total number of sequences of pebbles.
So Professor Dembski’s point that high Kolmogorov complexity combined with high improbability is a hallmark of intelligent agency, remains a valid one.
Nope :)Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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By the way, Elizabeth, Darwin *did* originally publish an "article" first in a "peer-review" context; he and Wallace submitted a joint paper which was read aloud to the Linnaean society. But it was the book-length treatment, with its massive documentation and extensive argumentation, which won over the world. Only historical specialists now could tell you what was in the paper, and it was hardly paid attention to when it was read at the meeting. So books do sometimes matter, regardless of what you may think. Did you write to the publisher or to Shapiro and ask if Shapiro's new book was peer-reviewed? If not, how do you know that it wasn't? In any case, that is irrelevant to what we were debating, which was what Shapiro currently thought, not whether or not his peers deemed those current thoughts to be any good. If you want to know a man's current views, you read his current writings, not what he wrote five years ago. Vincent was arguing from Shapiro's current views, and you were contradicting him (and me) without first learning what those views were; that was my complaint. On your other point, if Dembski wrote an article with a limited purpose, of course it should prove what it set out to prove, and if it doesn't, you have the right to point that out. All that I am saying is that you can't get the total thought of an author from one paper or even one book; you have to examine the whole corpus. No Free Lunch is a large book, and very extensive in scope; you can't say that it failed in every respect if you haven't read it. The only arguments you can say have failed are those you have read. And further, you can't say that intelligent design fails because one paper by one of many ID authors fails. I hope we can agree on all of this, but in any case, I'd like to get off this thread. So long.Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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Scott,
One is to write a function that compares two cards and returns an indicator of whether the first card is less than, equal to, or greater than the second card. That function contains such logic as: If Card A is a Queen and card B is a Jack, the result is “greater than.”
Almost, but not quite. Not only does the program not need to use the comparison operators, it also does not need to designate cards as King or Jack or 7. All it needs to do is compare card images, look for the best match, and then apply the kind of sorting algorithm you described. For example, if one card matches pattern X, which happens to be an image of the King of Clubs, and another card matches pattern Y, which happens to be an image of the 9 of Clubs, then the card that matches pattern Y goes in front of the card that matches pattern X. Similar logic applies for every possible card pairing. Note that the program is not "aware" that it's looking at an image of a card, that the card has symbols on it, that the meaning of one of the symbols is "King", or that "King" comes after "9". Yet it still sorts the cards into the correct order, which according to you should be impossible:
Anything that sorts them, human or otherwise, must have awareness of the meaning of the symbols printed on them.
Your statement is clearly false.
Meanwhile, any group of card players is free to decide that from now on, jack < king < queen. Those are the new rules. If, as you suggest, the initial arrangement is somehow emergent from natural law, then how did they change it?
Their brains did it, operating according to physical law. How do you think they did it? Do you think there was something nonphysical about it? If so, how did the nonphysical entity interact with the physical brain to cause the player suggesting the change to discuss it with the others?champignon
February 1, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Re Chesil beach, please see my comment above: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/its-all-about-information-professor-feser/comment-page-1/#comment-417903 Got to go. Bye.vjtorley
February 1, 2012
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Petrushka: You are the one who initially asked for "the pathetic level of detail." I merely responded in kind.Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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lastyearon: If you're speaking about me, you should, in the interests of both politeness and clarity, identify me by something other than "he." Your inference is completely unwarranted. I never said anything about not accepting common descent. I asked for a specification of some hypothetical molecular/genetic pathways between radically different forms, which is a different matter. This is a reasonable request when someone has asked for an equally specific set of steps from intelligent design proponents.Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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