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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
Actually, Jerad: I DO say that evolutionary materialist ideologues are in question-begging, self-referentially incoherent reduction to absurdity, and show just why -- have done so openly for over 25 years in fact. Cases in point:
CLASSICS: "Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? . . . . For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism." Sir Francis Crick, in The Astonishing Hypothesis: ""You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. " Haldane, c. 1930: ""It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] " Patricia Churchland, with a sidelight from Darwin: "Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in . . . feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing. The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's way of life and enhances the organism's chances of survival [[Churchland's emphasis]. Truth, whatever that is [[ --> let's try, from Aristotle in Metaphysics, 1011b: "that which says of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not" . . . ], definitely takes the hindmost. (Plantinga also adds this from Darwin: "the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?")" Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, paraphrased and with Reppert's expose: " the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions."
Lewontin, 1997: "the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." [And if you want to resort to a "quote mining" dismissal as has been attempted, kindly cf wider cite and comments <a href = http://iose-gen.blogspot.com/2010/06/introduction-and-summary.html#apriorihere.] Provine, 1998: " Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists [--> thus, on this view morality is a grand delusion . . . opening the door to cynical nihilistic manipulation as we are seeing]; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent [--> which implies that we do not have responsible freedom of thought in reasoning or choosing, i.e. the mind is dead and man is dead.] . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . ."
Case proved. QED I would suggest that the incoherence and moral hazards revealed are sufficient cause for a reasonable person to rule out such materialism from the list of live options for a worldview. But then, part of the focal problem in this thread is the loss of regard for reason guided by sober examination of the material facts. It's a Marlboro Man world of image and dramatic impression over substance. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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In short, Darwinists are self-deluded idiots. It’s SO obvious. Gawd, please, you Darbots. PLEASE post summore bull sh*t and bore me to death. You would do me a great service, since I’m suicidal.
You wonder why you bother sometimes I bet.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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Axel, 241:
the public at large (for want of a less elitist and unpretentious term) still tend to have a firmer grasp on common sense than the intelligentsia, most notably, of an atheistic persuasion. So, imo, it is not a matter of engaging the emotions of the general public to achieve the desired end, as WJM would have it, but rather to explain the extraordinary offence against common sense of, for example, positing that nothing could turn itself into everything, which the so-called Consensus try to impose. The emotion of disgust and derision from the public will ensue after the event, just as surely, if not more so, as it does with us Idists on here.
Nailed it! Here is the apostle Paul on the ethics and dynamics of building of sound conviction as the basis for personal, familial, institutional and community transformation:
2 Cor 4:1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God,[a] we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice[b] cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants[c] for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [ESV, read on]
Likewise, we note a key point in Jn 8:44 or so, where Jesus warns some interlocutors, that they were in such a state of willful blindness that BECAUSE he tells the truth, they cannot hear what he has to say. The essence of deception is to think yourself right when you are ever so wrong. One locked into and drawing the benefits of "the flesh-pots of Egypt" will actually often think the truth sitting in front of his nose is absurd nonsense. Too often, only crushing pain beyond endurance due to collapse of the system due to collision with reality suffices to break that Plato's Cave bewitchment. But also, that which is false and unreasonable will show itself so by failing the test of truth and the test of reason: it will simply not accurately report on reality. In Aristotle's terms in Metaphysics 1011b, truth says of what is that it is and of what is not that it is not. That is why self evident first principles of right reason and self evident first truths about the real world as we experience it are so pivotal. These are the bedrock cornerstone and plumbline that allow us to build in the right place in correct alignment with reality. And, they include first moral truths, also, such as that we are inherently valuable and under the moral government of justice (as testified to be conscience and the demand for fairness in our quarrels) . . . which has vast implications. (As in, cf. the argument in a nutshell in Rom 1:19 ff.) Simon Greenleaf, in Evidence Vol 1 Ch 1 has some choice words also -- in the context that in a jury trial one seeks to show a case to a reasonable standard of responsible warrant to ordinary people (in British thought, the man in the Clapham bus stop). In effect, the public here are the biggest grand jury of all time:
Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [--> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. [A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)]
We must recognise that all of this is happening in an age of manipulation by ever so cleverly calculated shadow shows, using the same techniques that persuaded us about which brand of soap to buy. And as also persuaded us to buy rolled up paper tubes full of toxic dried up leaves and smoke them, to the detriment of our health. On this, the Marlboro Man campaigns were a classic. (Cf. my discussion here.) In that context, the expanding hate and slander fest at what is now obviously the scurrilous AtBC's "respectable" front operation, TSZ, and its "good cop" in cahoots with the "bad cop" enablers are telling us that we are under assault by ruthless, manipulative, utterly cynical, disrespectful Alinskyite nihilists. Such radicals do not yield to the force of reason, they only reckon with the logic of force; here, the question in their corrupt minds being, "can I get away with it." If they think there is a reasonable chance they will try to manipulate the naive and marginalise, turn people against and scapegoat the few who see through the cheat. But, the undeniable fact of hypocritical censorship and career busting at BSU are in the table -- notice, not one of the enablers above tried to defend that! -- and the deceitful hate and slander fest at TSZ is obvious to ant decent person regardless of the rhetorical devices of the good cop enablers here. (Notice, not one of those enablers has been able to give a cogent response to the DI corrective of the NCSE's twisting of the so called wedge doc into strawman pretzels. The talking points about a nefarious theocratic Christo-fascist neo-nazi right wing plot to impose an anti-science totalitarian tyranny of censorship etc etc complete with renewing the inquisition against politically correct groups and agendas is little more than the most lurid of conspiracy theories, swallowed by the gullible.) In response, right now we need a force in being strategy, much like on Sept 15, 1940. So long as Fighter Command is intact and can rapidly respond to and expose then disrupt a significant percentage of rhetorical raids and efforts to impose censorship and career busting etc, the agenda to impose utter nihilism is checked. Then, eventually, over time, a critical mass of the undeceived will build up and the juggernaut will fall of its own weight as the rot proceeds apace within. (It is no accident or surprise that the new atheists have fallen into sex scandals, for instance.) It is a grim summer, but the time will come when the threat of Invasion will recede, and then we can rebuild as a bastion and beacon of hope, to resurge and to rescue. Members of the resistance in captured territory, we shall return. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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#293 - Optimus A Lego house is a human-made thing, is it not? I went through a similar exercise with StephenB re: sandcastle - though he didn't insist on "no documentary evidence" as if the sandcastle just dropped out of the sky into your lap - and he didn't last it out. I doubt Optimus will do any better given that the same category error is in play. ID folks don't seem willing to learn; they ask such questions, then listen, but don't hear. And Optimus was even there in that thread! timaeus can be dealt with later...I've got travelling to do! :PGregory
September 18, 2013
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1. I love real science 2. Darwinists (the advocates of the Modern Synthesis) are not real scientists. 3. I am an agnostic. 4. I am not a Bible thumping fundamentalists. In short, Darwinists are self-deluded idiots. It's SO obvious. Gawd, please, you Darbots. PLEASE post summore bull sh*t and bore me to death. You would do me a great service, since I'm suicidal. TYVMCentralScrutinizer
September 17, 2013
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No, Elizabeth. William’s point is precisely that it is not recognisable as science, still less, indeed, as a particular domain of science, for the simple reason that, in its agony, its death throes, IT does not, itself, recognise science, the scope of science that has enabled science to garner respect. It is a farrago of fantasy, continuing ever more farcically to this very day. In fact, even in its prime, it was a conjecture which, insofar as reasonable people ever found it plausible, was, in very short order, destined to disappoint them. It is evidently a hallucinogenic to which secular fundamentalists of that persuasion are well and truly hooked. Hence the continuing surreally-quixotic, Sisyphean quest to establish that nothing turned itself into everything… and that there might be a Multiverse of an infinite number of universes, one of which would validate whatever they had posited. Or anything else posited by anyone else, for that matter, literally, ad infinitum.
Well, it's demise has been predicted before and yet . . . So, all the research, all the publications, all the books and television shows are just all . . . fantasy? It's all just been made up and everyone is too embarrassed and too busy feeding at the funding trough to admit that it's all been a great hoax?Jerad
September 17, 2013
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In front of you sits a model house (let’s say it’s the White House, just for kicks) made of Lego bricks. You didn’t witness its origin and possess no documentary evidence that would give away its origin. There are no finger prints on the structure. Given that data, what can be inferred about its origin? Specifically: 1. Was it the product of intelligent agency (i.e. a person)? 2. If so, what can be known about the agency responsible? – What are its physical characteristics? – What was its mental state when designing and fabricating? – Why did the designer build the Lego house? – What is the educational level of the designer? – Was there more than one intelligent agent involved? – When was the structure fabricated? – How long did it take? 3. If not, what process could be considered a viable explanation for the existence and nature of the house?
Based on the bricks used it would be easy enough to estimate a date before which the house could not have been built. Chemical analysis might even reveal a bit more about when and where the bricks were made. As the White House has undergone changes over the years it MIGHT be possible to further narrow down the date of construction depending on if certain changes are reflected in the model. No fingerprints I'll take to mean no DNA either. Still, there might be wear marks or blemishes on some of the bricks. It would be worth figuring out how the bricks could have been purchased. That is: could the bricks used have come from a combination of existing sets (which is how most Lego bricks are sold these days). It that was determined then it would be possible to narrow down the time when the various sets were purchased based on the dates they were available for sale. It would also be possible to get an estimate of the amount of money required. Which would give some idea of the financial resources available to the designer/model maker. It would be easy enough to count the number of bricks and get a rough estimate of the assembly time required given an average brick placement time. It would be plausible to roughly estimate the intellectual level of the designer based on the complexity of the design. Also, some inferences could be made depending on how accurate the representation is. Depending on the location of the model it would be useful to examine the records of the site (ownership, recent use, etc) to attempt to get some idea of who had access and when. If the model is really massive then the logistics would have been complicated. The point being, depending on the level of interest in the construction, there might be much that could be discerned. And there certainly could be many, many hypothesises regarding aspect of the method used, the time taken, etc. Which begs the question: how interested are ID proponents in discerning/hypothesising about the designer?Jerad
September 17, 2013
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For any event in the remote past, our ability to know the details of what happened is sharply contingent on the available data. If we have data (e.g. eyewitness testimony, well-preserved artifacts, DNA, documentary evidence, etc.) then we may be able to say a great deal about the past event. If we lack the data, then we probably can’t. This is not just a cop out from ID proponents, it is a fundamental limitation on our ability to know the remote past with any justifiable certainty. No ID proponent (to my knowledge) has ever discouraged investigation of the identity of the designer. We simply think that it’s ludicrous to hold the design inference hostage to an unreasonable standard of proof. That ID doesn’t try to answer every conceivable question about the whens and whys of the designer doesn’t indict it anymore than the inability of evolutionary theory to explain why any particular mutation arose. I invite you to try the thought experiment I proposed to Dr. Liddle so that you may evaluate matters for yourself.
Dr Belinski has estimated how many mutations it took to turn an ungulate into a whale in the proposed time frame and then challenged evolutionary theorists to show how that could have happened. Many ID proponents claim a limit to the ability of mutations to achieve certain 'goals'. If we don't 'observe' such transitions actually occurring is it therefore logical to assume they won't happen and that natural processes aren't up to the job. And, thus, design? Are you sure you've been keeping up with the kind of reasoning used by other ID proponents? Can you not, at the very least, decide between a one-off, front loading design paradigm vs an incremental design model? What kind of explanatory power do you think ID will ever be capable of? You've got the same fossils, morphological studies, genetic information and the bio-geographic data that evolutionary biologists use. What can it tell you about the design inference?Jerad
September 17, 2013
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This is not just a cop out from ID proponents, it is a fundamental limitation on our ability to know the remote past with any justifiable certainty.
Typo - omit 'just'. :POptimus
September 17, 2013
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Jerad @ 262
What do you think about ID proponents’ attempts at arguing a designer into existence? If it’s not possible to infer aspects of the designer from the design then are you sure that a designer exists? Why is it not possible to expect there to be other evidence for the designer’s existence? Why are all these questions not addressed? What is ID actually saying? Aside from: some unknown, unspecified designer did it? Is it really a scientific notion? Do you agree with Mr Murray that it’s more important to focus on winning hearts over minds? Do you think he’s right to categorise the ‘conflict’ as a war?
I have addressed at length the issue of inferring design in the absence of detailed knowledge of the designer before, so I have no desire to devote the whole of my evening to doing so again. I will, therefore, limit myself to a few brief statements. For any event in the remote past, our ability to know the details of what happened is sharply contingent on the available data. If we have data (e.g. eyewitness testimony, well-preserved artifacts, DNA, documentary evidence, etc.) then we may be able to say a great deal about the past event. If we lack the data, then we probably can't. This is not just a cop out from ID proponents, it is a fundamental limitation on our ability to know the remote past with any justifiable certainty. No ID proponent (to my knowledge) has ever discouraged investigation of the identity of the designer. We simply think that it's ludicrous to hold the design inference hostage to an unreasonable standard of proof. That ID doesn't try to answer every conceivable question about the whens and whys of the designer doesn't indict it anymore than the inability of evolutionary theory to explain why any particular mutation arose. I invite you to try the thought experiment I proposed to Dr. Liddle so that you may evaluate matters for yourself.Optimus
September 17, 2013
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@ Elizabeth OK so here's the thought experiment (it's quite simple really): In front of you sits a model house (let's say it's the White House, just for kicks) made of Lego bricks. You didn't witness its origin and possess no documentary evidence that would give away its origin. There are no finger prints on the structure. Given that data, what can be inferred about its origin? Specifically: 1. Was it the product of intelligent agency (i.e. a person)? 2. If so, what can be known about the agency responsible? - What are its physical characteristics? - What was its mental state when designing and fabricating? - Why did the designer build the Lego house? - What is the educational level of the designer? - Was there more than one intelligent agent involved? - When was the structure fabricated? - How long did it take? 3. If not, what process could be considered a viable explanation for the existence and nature of the house? Feel free to share with the TSZ regulars. I'd be interested to know how they answer.Optimus
September 17, 2013
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Ah, shattered expectations. That's why I always try to start out at or near the bottom in any debate, then people can only be pleasantly surprised when I improve.Mung
September 17, 2013
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Perhap I do, Bill, perhaps I do. But I assure you its nothing of the sort. I just have this little issue with people who cannot be trusted to act in good faith. In Dr Liddle's case, I had actually expected better. Perhaps that is it.Upright BiPed
September 17, 2013
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From the Darwinism Lexicon: Quote mining: 1. using any quote that undermines the position of the Darwinist or supports intelligent design. 2. any quote that demonstrates the self-refuting, hypocritical or dissembling nature of a Darwinist's argumentWilliam J Murray
September 17, 2013
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Lizzie:
please link to wherever it was that I said I was thinking of starting a thread with stricter rules. I don’t think I ever did, in the end.
UB:
Are you out of your mind? Do you really think the words I attributed to you in post #194 are ones that I just made up?? Really? As if I need deception where you are concerned.
Oh, ferchrissakes you two. Here is the link: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=659 And here is what Lizzie said, in its entirety:
I think what I might do is to start a new thread, in which the rules of this site are more strictly enforced. However, rather than send violating posts to guano, I will move them here. Upright BiPed, please read the forum rules here. They are not onerous, and I have no wish to censor ideas. I do want to ensure that emotional baggage and assumptions about other posters’ motivations are rigorously excluded. Let’s conduct this in an academically rigorous way. Let everyone address questions presented to them as clearly as they can, and read the responses as carefully as they can. Then we may make some progress. junkdnaforlife has made a good start, and I’ll repost his/her post above in the new thread.
So, no new rules, but stricter enforcement of rules already in place. I do think UB was a bit unfairly singled out, as others were equally guilty of motive mongering. Not that any of this made any difference. Within 24 hours UB accused Lizzle of dissembling, others returned the compliment, and it was off to the races for just about everyone from there. Biped, you seem to have weirdly thin skin when it comes to Lizzie. Your bitter disappointment over her withdrawal from your original discussion is still palpable. You sound for all the world like a jilted lover.Reciprocating Bill
September 17, 2013
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Unusually, I chuckle along with you this time, 'Mung'. In just over a month I'll be in Moscow. If Mr. Snowden crosses my path, I'll put in a word for you. Blagotvoritelnost - charity has an interesting history in Russia, on the far other side of the wanna-be 'Orthodox' claims of IDism.Gregory
September 17, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
I do not think that the proposition that “the world/life/whatever was designed by an Intelligent Designer” can be refuted.
Mung:
Yes, even after all her time spent here at UD, that’s still her conception of ID. I’d really like to know how her conception of ID has changed since I first encountered her at UD.
Elizabeth Liddle:
My statement is quite clear, Mung. It’s not a statement of what ID is. It is a statement of what I think cannot be refuted. I know that the ID is that certain patterns are best explained by an intelligent designer.
Mung:
You failed to mention that when you use the terms “design” and “Intelligent Designer” that you’re specifically not including “Intelligent Design.”
Elizabeth Liddle:
I think myself that ID is, in principle, a perfectly testable hypothesis, as long as we are testing a designer with specific constraints. Constraints allow us to make a prediction. However, those constraints need, obviously, to be different from the constraints of the alternative hypothesis, e.g. darwinian evolution, otherwise we have no way of seeing which fits the data better. So we certainly cannot conclude that because design is evidently constrained, that there was no designer – it could have been a constrained designer. But nor can we conclude a designer. Indeed, without a specific design hypothesis we cannot, in my view, either exclude design, nor draw a design conclusion. I do not think that “science/darwin shows there was no designer” is a supported conclusion, nor could it ever be.
Still confused about ID, are you? Elizabeth Liddle:
But as you appear committed to quote-mining my posts for the appearance of inconsistency, I guess there’s not a lot of point in pointing this out.
Well there you go. I did it again. Not charitable.Mung
September 17, 2013
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Folks, there’s no time left to comment, moving countries again.
Snowden? Snowden, is that you?Mung
September 17, 2013
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LT, 211: >> That’s why KF keeps banging on about some inconsequential challenge he issued (ooooh, if it’s a challenge then we better alert the scientists!),>> 1 --> Alinskyist mockery to dismiss what has not been cogently answered 2 --> And what is this: the absence of a blind mechanism backed up by observation that is capable of accounting for the origin of FSCO/I in cell based life (thus, origin of life) and of major body plans (thus, the Darwinist tree of life) 3 --> What LT would distract from is that the open challenge was that I would host a feature length Darwinist article that would provide observationally backed warrant for those things, full well knowing that a successful essay would utterly devastate design arguments in the domain of life. 4 --> Net result of a free shot at goal offer given a year ago: mockery, distraction, dismissals, but no serious takers. (And, in lieu of the empty chair, I took time to address Wiki's articles and the proffered claimed 29 evidences of macro evo. None of which made the grade. 5 --> obvious conclusion: there is nothing really substantial there once question begging a prioris are off the table and once the actual scientific standard that dynamics should have adequate empirical backing, is applied. >> and about how FSCO/I really is a real concept>> 6 --> Of course, to try to dismiss the descriptive term, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information -- abbreviated for convenience FSCO/I -- LT produced a case in point, a complex organised ASCII text string in accord with the rules and symbols of English. He made use of another, the computing machinery used to submit same. 7 --> Both abundantly exemplify that FSCO/I is routinely observed and is just as routinely observed to be produced by design. 8 --> Indeed, per fair comment, on billions of observed cases, FSCO/I (never mind a large number of failed attempted counter-examples . . . the probable reason for the attempt to switch to trying to dismiss the term) is reliably seen to result from design and is a sign pointing to it, per canons of inductive reasoning. As in, the logic behind the methods of science. >>that supports ID,>> 9 --> Why, by the logic of science, yes. >>and about how Plato’s cave applies to atheists and not to theist-ideologues like himself. >> 10 --> A turnabout rhetorical attempt. 11 --> The parable of Plato's cave is a parable about -- at relevant level -- manipulation of a public to have a common false perception of the world through deceptive shadow shows, and what happens when a prisoner gets loose, and discovers the cheat, escapes and learns more about the world then tries to come back to help. Unsurprisingly, the denizens of the cave turn on him perceiving him as a fool and a threat. The story of Socrates is blatantly lurking just below the surface. And the The Matrix movies are a distant descendant, as was pointed out to me by a student a long time ago now . . . I am no movie fan. 12 --> So, how does one avoid manipulative false enlightenment that is only a shadow show? Is it just a matter of who has the cleverer manipulation backed up by bigger guns? 13 --> By proper worldviews analysis in light of factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power, cf. here on, or the in a nutshell here, which you can see was a part of a compulsory course in a . . . shudder . . . Seminary. (And LT knows about this, he is playing at manipulative rhetoric.) 14 --> In particular, there are self evident first principles of right reason and other key first truths that serve to winnow out many belief systems, leading us to a reasonable set of first plausibles. And while we will err as we are fallible there is no reason why we cannot have well warranted high confidence in well grounded systems of thought. I happen to think that, on many grounds, the Judaeo-Christian ethical theistic worldview is sound, and that Jesus of Nazareth is on quite adequate grounds [cf here on], Messiah. It so happens that -- as can be seen from the earlier points -- this is essentially independent of the inductive logic grounds on which I believe FSCO/I is a good sign of design as cause. _____ Bottomline, this is a backhanded admission of no solid case; behind a smokescreen of distractors and barbed remarks. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Incidentally, Johnb, please accept my sincere apologies for so callously disparaging what was just some charitable posters on our side offering each other mutual encouragement, in their endeavours to treat with us berserkers.Axel
September 17, 2013
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please link to wherever it was that I said I was thinking of starting a thread with stricter rules. I don’t think I ever did, in the end.
Are you out of your mind? Do you really think the words I attributed to you in post #194 are ones that I just made up?? Really? As if I need deception where you are concerned.Upright BiPed
September 17, 2013
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For goodness sake, Elizabeth, in one of his lucid moments Darwin said as much, himself. He wasn't too enamoured of the idea of being a 'meat-head', if it meant he was reduced to an automaton, and his thoughts no better than those of an advanced monkey.Axel
September 17, 2013
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#276 KN: Well, it’s certainly true that another person doesn’t experience my purposes in the way that I do, but I don’t think that my experience of my purposes is “direct” or “immediate” in a way that another person’s experience of my purposes is not. But I am making a distinction here between purposes (in the sense of purposive behavior) and “the stuff of inner life” — thoughts, feelings, etc. And perhaps this is not a distinction you are making?
Indeed, I didn’t make that distinction. I was referring to purpose in the sense of, what you call, “the stuff of inner life”. In my (inner) experience purpose usually is a very complex, layered even, phenomenon. Often there is a mixture of doubt, fear, longing, perseverance etc. involved which is almost impossible to describe or convey to another person. Aren’t we all alone in the sense that we lack the possibility to fully express our inner world? Another question is if that would lead to a better world.
#276 KN: Though even those are made more concrete and vivid to myself when written down or expressed in conversation — I frequently have the experience of not really knowing what I think or feel about something until it unfolds in conversation or in writing, which is a sort of conversation with oneself.
I know what you mean. Sometimes I ‘know’ that I have an idea but I have to search for matching words. Writing or talking out loud to myself helps most of the time.
#276 KN: Where I’m coming from, the really important issue is about concepts. The view I’m opposing — and perhaps this is not your view at all? — is the idea that my own awareness of my own inner mental states is wholly independent of my conceptual framework.
Well, I have to agree that one looks at oneself (and others) through a conceptual framework. On the other hand there is something mystical about self-awareness. It is relentless, you can fool others but not yourself. It is mysteriously accurate and at the same time lacking of the vivid colors, images and sounds of the outer world.Box
September 17, 2013
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'I will also note that that doesn’t put you in a strong position to declare an entire domain of science “incredibly, overwhelmingly stupid”.' No, Elizabeth. William's point is precisely that it is not recognisable as science, still less, indeed, as a particular domain of science, for the simple reason that, in its agony, its death throes, IT does not, itself, recognise science, the scope of science that has enabled science to garner respect. It is a farrago of fantasy, continuing ever more farcically to this very day. In fact, even in its prime, it was a conjecture which, insofar as reasonable people ever found it plausible, was, in very short order, destined to disappoint them. It is evidently a hallucinogenic to which secular fundamentalists of that persuasion are well and truly hooked. Hence the continuing surreally-quixotic, Sisyphean quest to establish that nothing turned itself into everything... and that there might be a Multiverse of an infinite number of universes, one of which would validate whatever they had posited. Or anything else posited by anyone else, for that matter, literally, ad infinitum.Axel
September 17, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Nothing in that post at TSZ approaches the regular vitriol that is posted daily here at UD against “Darwinists”.
And the author of that OP didn't just create another thread at TSZ with the title, "Totalitarianism and The American Intelligent Design Movement – Part I" You would think that if wants to troll he'd come here to do it!Mung
September 17, 2013
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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists? Freely you have received, freely give.Mung
September 17, 2013
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Liz:
I will note that you, to your credit, claim no scientific or quantitative expertise. I will also note that that doesn’t put you in a strong position to declare an entire domain of science “incredibly, overwhelmingly stupid”.
And I will note that your notes appear more directed toward insulating said domain than in defending it on the merits. Arguments from authority are so much less compelling when they come from those who cannot be said to have evolved upward. :)Phinehas
September 17, 2013
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In re: Box @ 265
I don’t think we should conflate understanding purposes with the direct experience of purposes. I agree that a wiser person may have a better understanding of my purposes, but only after I let her/him in on my private purposes. A wiser person cannot have a better experience of my purposes (or my thoughts, feelings or my consciousness). And this what I’m talking about: the direct subjective private experience / observation of purpose.
Well, it's certainly true that another person doesn't experience my purposes in the way that I do, but I don't think that my experience of my purposes is "direct" or "immediate" in a way that another person's experience of my purposes is not. But I am making a distinction here between purposes (in the sense of purposive behavior) and "the stuff of inner life" -- thoughts, feelings, etc. And perhaps this is not a distinction you are making? Though even those are made more concrete and vivid to myself when written down or expressed in conversation -- I frequently have the experience of not really knowing what I think or feel about something until it unfolds in conversation or in writing, which is a sort of conversation with oneself. Where I'm coming from, the really important issue is about concepts. The view I'm opposing -- and perhaps this is not your view at all? -- is the idea that my own awareness of my own inner mental states is wholly independent of my conceptual framework.
Fermions and bosons behaving in the purposeless, meaningless ways described by physics, are not behind the steering wheel. That follows from your absurd metaphysical belief.
Well, ok -- sort of -- but that objection assumes that emergentism is incoherent, and I really don't think that's been shown conclusively. I've only briefly looked at Feser's criticisms, and on first pass, they strike me as relying too much on the vocabulary of Aristotelian/Thomistic metaphysics -- a vocabulary that I find simply too impoverished to capture what we get from, for example, autopoiesis theory. That said, I acknowledge that the debate about the metaphysics of emergence is not my strongest area of philosophy. I mostly work in the intersection of phenomenology and pragmatism, with a bit of critical theory here and there.Kantian Naturalist
September 17, 2013
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#268 ElizabethBL: It is the system that is “behind the steering wheel” (…)
#271 Box: What do you consider to be the system?
#272 ElizabethBL: Depends what properties you are referring to.
Is the system a epiphenomenon (*poof*) or is the system a configuration of parts and is the property of this configuration (this system) new? Can you define how you use 'system' and 'property'?Box
September 17, 2013
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Folks, there's no time left to comment, moving countries again. This 2013 song seems to speak to the heavy 'emotion' involved in this thread. Sure, she may be in prison, but that's about as 'raw' and 'resonant' as it comes wrt N. America today. It's meant to shake people from their complacency. This, indeed, is the CONTEXT in which Uppercase 'Intelligent Design' Theory is being proposed in America. If the words/lyrics go to fast, they're worth looking up and meditating on, as Lauryn is likely doing right now in her small confined room away from her children. Thankfully, she differs greatly from YECist Dr. Dino in so many ways, while IDism continues to shelter their 'brothers and sisters' in 'arms' for the so-called 'strictly [natural] science' of IDT. Neurotic Society: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBBxFKCAaCo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl0u_m0TeB4Gregory
September 17, 2013
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