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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
Your #223, WJM: 'ROFL' Hilariously economical!!!!Axel
September 17, 2013
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@ Elizabeth, KN, Jerad, etc. For the record, I will affirm that there are a number of comments/posts at UD with which I disagree, sometimes quite strongly. I'll even say (without personal rancor) that there are certain commenters that dont even read (e.g. Joe). Additionally, though I unapologetically support ID on the whole, there are aspects that I find unconvincing (e.g. that its presently possible to produce a numerical value of physical complexity that is meaningful). So even though ID is a robust intellectual venture, there is room for cogent, constructive criticism. There are certainly areas to tighten up terminology, reduce ambiguity, and refine argumentation. Having said this, I think most of the criticisms that you (and your fellows) have presented here at UD are quite muddled and have been addressed ad nauseum in articles, books, and blog posts by ID proponents. Critiques such as - 'who designed the designer', alleged violations of the principle of parsimony, arguments from imperfection, unreasonable demands to specify the nature of the designer, appeals to artificial methodological principles, prolonged obfuscatory semantic criticisms, etc. have repeatedly been found wanting, obviously so. So I think that what happens at times in these debates is that ID proponents, accustomed to being greeted with insincere discussion, simply assume that the critic is being disingenuous. It can produce rhetoric that is over the top - a consequence that is lamentable but hardly unnatural. Why not give consideration to someone like Monton or Nagel so that your future criticisms of ID might go over better?Optimus
September 17, 2013
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'I don’t know what “Darwinism” is, and I am not a “Darwinist”. I said that Darwinian mechanisms, namely self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success are a hypothesis for adaptive evolution.' For crying out loud, Elizabeth! You claim not to know what Darwinism or Darwinist is; and in the next breath, you hold forth on Darwinian mechanisms! Am I missing something here? Or am I going mad? Or is Elizabeth contradicting herself without the decent interval surely the merest modicum of decorum requires? ' The “hypothesis” does not “condemn rape” because scientific hypotheses don’t condemn anything. They are simply models put forward to account for data.' I don't know (never do) whether you are being deliberately disingenuous, or are truly blind to the potential of a scientific hypothesis to possess dimensions (beyond the scope of scientism) which impinge inextricably and in a thoroughly primordial fashion upon human/divine morality. For practical purposes and prima facie, WJM is right about the advertising, propaganda, spin, what have you, so that, for example, newspapers are not concerned with communicating information but engaging the emotions of the readers. The owners know it's what sells their papers. It's true with regard to all of us, actually, when it comes down to our assumptions, so that, the deepest truths being so abstruse, we end up believing what we want to. It just happens, understandably enough since he inspired such a bias, that God made the world to fit our particular, sacred, religious predilections. The emotional investment in your kind of solipsistic, if not hedonistic, credos (necessarily, all axiomatically subjective) also attests to this phenomenon. However, up to a point, that is a digression, from the element of truth in the criticisms of a sort of intellectual elitism I wanted to address. WJM, imo, introduced it unnecessarily. The fact of the matter is that most people without an academic education grow up with the notion instilled in them by the worldly wise (who have a vested interest in the notion that, irrespective of any possibly quite catastrophically seminal folly they may entertain in their assumptions, they are more intelligent.) As a result, they will tend to lack confidence in their own judgment, when some putatively educated Yahoo peddles what they would otherwise immediately recognise as manifest nonsense. However, the public at large (for want of a less elitist and unpretentious term) still tend to have a firmer grasp on common sense than the intelligentsia, most notably, of an atheistic persuasion. So, imo, it is not a matter of engaging the emotions of the general public to achieve the desired end, as WJM would have it, but rather to explain the extraordinary offence against common sense of, for example, positing that nothing could turn itself into everything, which the so-called Consensus try to impose. The emotion of disgust and derision from the public will ensue after the event, just as surely, if not more so, as it does with us Idists on here.Axel
September 17, 2013
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EL, I really would just like a simple response to this: If man is the source of the moral law, then man governs the moral law, and the moral law doesn’t govern man. Is this not true? If we are its creator, we are its master.Brent
September 17, 2013
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Brent, if you would like to continue this conversation at TSZ you would be very welcome. My sole point in this thread is that there is a perfectly substantial philosophical literature on the derivation of morality via reason. You may not agree with it, but it is not a slam dunk either way. And personally, I thought that William made a very poor fist of the case against at TSZ. Perhaps you will be more persuasive :)Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Phinehas @235, Ding-ding-ding!Brent
September 17, 2013
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Yes, well, Box, with all due respect to Barry, I disagree with him. I think it is perfectly obvious that molecules, for instance, have properties not possessed by their constituent atoms. I see no "poofery" in the idea that an animal can act with purpose, even though its neurons cannot. Indeed we know a great deal about the neuroscience of how such purposes are formed and executed.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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True.
Good.
And is perfectly possible to have a binding moral code that is enforced using a social and legal justice system.
Off-the-charts not good. You either have to say that morality is, then, defined by the laws (made by men), or the laws were based on some other code. Where did that come from???
I didn’t say “morality evolved” although I think the capacity to use reason, and interact in cooperative social groups did. These, and other capacities, in my view conferred on us the ability to and motivation to construct and implement moral systems. These systems enable us to live in productive harmony with each other.
So, you say the moral laws come from man. If man is the source of the moral law, then man governs the moral law, and the moral law doesn't govern man. And, as is always the case, you base everything on a hidden "initial" moral base, i.e. the "productive harmony" law. Who says we ought to live in harmony? (I so think I'm going to get a Christopher Hitchens response)Brent
September 17, 2013
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KN:
Not that one would know it from Internet debating sites like Uncommon Descent and The Skeptical Zone, but there is actually a thriving and very interesting discussion amongst philosophers about whether or not naturalism can accommodate reason — it’s not a settled issue!
*Waiting with bated breath to see what the philosophers settle on...without recourse to the very reason in question.*Phinehas
September 17, 2013
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#218
ElisabethBL: I think that “larger objects” have properties not possessed by their parts. This properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear.
Aha, Emergentism! Here is Barry Arrington on materialist poofery:
Emergence is materialist poofery. Take the mind-brain problem again. The materialist knows that his claim that the mind does not exist is patently absurd. Yet, given his premises it simply cannot exist. So what is a materialist to do? Easy. Poof – the mind is an emergent property of the brain system that otherwise cannot be accounted for on materialist grounds.
Check out Edward Feser on emergentism.Box
September 17, 2013
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Brent:
Truths such as that you cannot have a binding morality without a binding agent.
True. And is perfectly possible to have a binding moral code that is enforced using a social and legal justice system.
You say that morality evolved, but that it is binding. It obviously cannot be. It is moronic.
I didn't say "morality evolved" although I think the capacity to use reason, and interact in cooperative social groups did. These, and other capacities, in my view conferred on us the ability to and motivation to construct and implement moral systems. These systems enable us to live in productive harmony with each other.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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WJM: No, and therefore No.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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When one cannot get simple logical and necessary truths, even after being shown time and time again — things as simple as two plus two equals four — then clearly we are not dealing with an intellectual problem. It’s either a lobotomy case, or sin.
Another sterling example of good will and civilised discussion. Nice to know what you all really think though.Jerad
September 17, 2013
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You can call it it elitism if you want, but that doesn’t make it any less true. It’s the well-established, successful practice of successful marketing and advertising. Your average consumer purchases products because they positively, emotionally identify with the marketing slogans and imagery. Most people come to their beliefs via emotion, not via logic. Most people don’t even know the basic principles of logic, much less how to appropriately utilize them. That’s also the reason why rational debates matter much, much less in the cultural arena than a good, emotional meme, whether or not that meme is true or false.
So, arguing the science of ID has been a colossal waste of time? It doesn't matter because many people are only going to change their minds in the direction their heart leads? I'm amazed that a moderator here at UD is saying such things. I guess if you don't even take the scientific debate seriously then why should the rest of us?Jerad
September 17, 2013
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I’m sure it doesn’t, William. Nonetheless my blog was what your OP specifically references.
So, you were under the impression that I consider the specific membership of TSZ a significant threat to society, and are whom I am exclusively referring to when I talk about getting marketing out to the low-information public? Are you really that self-absorbed?William J Murray
September 17, 2013
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EL @222, Truths such as that you cannot have a binding morality without a binding agent. You say that morality evolved, but that it is binding. It obviously cannot be. It is moronic.Brent
September 17, 2013
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Oh you didn’t know: Naturalism is also not able to accommodate reason. According to naturalism anything that is real is really just fermions and bosons behaving in the purposeless, meaningless ways described by physics.
Not that one would know it from Internet debating sites like Uncommon Descent and The Skeptical Zone, but there is actually a thriving and very interesting discussion amongst philosophers about whether or not naturalism can accommodate reason -- it's not a settled issue! Crudely put, proponents of liberal naturalism hold that there is a via media between scientific/reductive naturalism and supernaturalism -- that is, a version of naturalism that acknowledges the criticism that scientific naturalism cannot accommodate reason but that a more liberal naturalism can successfully do so. For more, see Naturalism and Normativity (reviewed here). That said, the debate between scientific naturalism (as represented by Alex Rosenberg) and liberal naturalism (as represented by Hilary Putnam and John McDowell) -- with Kitcher and Churchland being somewhere in the middle, I think -- is really quite distinct from the questions of the explanatory strengths and limits of "Darwinism" (construed broadly enough to include the extended evolutionary synthesis (PDF).Kantian Naturalist
September 17, 2013
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Since the other thread on "charitability" has now been closed by johnnyb, and since on that thread, I was harshly accused of uncharitable reading by Gregory, I want to achieve closure by responding here to Gregory's accusation that I was not charitable toward his proposal for "human extension." See this column (Sept. 12, 2013): https://uncommondescent.com/culture/if-we-cant-find-common-ground-at-least-lets-find-charitable-ground/ under which Gregory wrote (#97, Sept. 16, 2013): "He had the opportunity to comment constructively and charitably on my definition of 'evolutionism' before and instead *intentionally stood in the way of potentially fruitful dialogue about Human Extension*." [emphasis added] Is this true? Let the facts decide. The thread to which Gregory is referring, where I allegedly "intentionally stood in the way," is: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/gregory-and-the-subject-of-human-extension/ On this year-old thread, Gregory and I had a marathon exchange about the relevance of his work on "human extension" to the biological and cosmological investigations of ID proponents. (By way of clarification, the work on "human extension" involves, among other things, the investigation of designers, the designing process, and various other aspects of human creativity and social activity.) We disagreed on much when it came to ID, but I do not believe there is any evidence that I "intentionally stood in the way" of any investigations in the social sciences generally, or investigations into "human extension" specifically. However, I will let my words speak for themselves. Here are the most relevant excerpts, arranged by the numbers of the posts in which they appear. My closing remarks, written today, appear after the asterisks following the last excerpt. ****************** 49: In short, Gregory, no one has anything against your project to study "intelligent design" in the human/social context. It's a perfectly reasonable area of academic investigation, and one of social significance. 60: Again, there is nothing wrong with Gregory's project. A "phenomenology of human design" could be quite illuminating for social science and even for the humanities. 70: There is nothing wrong with a humanities/social science analysis of the phenomenon of "design" (or related concepts, such as purpose); I'm quite happy for Gregory to spend his time doing such work. 97: Gregory: "My attempt to chart a new way forward is obviously disconcerting to him ..." Timaeus: Gregory's attempt to "chart a new way forward" is not "disconcerting" to me. In fact, though Gregory appears to read too hurriedly or carelessly to have noticed, I've said about five times now that I think his project would make an excellent addition to human/social studies. 103: Exactly right. No one in ID is forbidding anyone, anywhere, from talking about designers or "designing activity" - if they can get hold of information about that. 107: I'm going to take one last shot at getting you to see something. But before I take it, I want to make clear my motives, since in the past you have often accused me of being out to get you, or of desiring to put you down, or of having motives of self-aggrandizement. So please listen to this preamble. 1. I am not trying to embarrass you. 2. I am not trying to prove that I am smarter than you. 3. I am not questioning your competence in your own field. 4. I am not out to attack Human Extension as an area of academic investigation. ... Remember, Gregory, I am not saying that Human Extension is false. I am not saying it is worthless. I am not saying that it should not be studied or written about. 118: And now, let's move on. I've already granted you that Human Extension, done properly, could be a very valuable project in social science. I've already said that ID people have no objection whatsoever if you pursue that project. Nothing prevents you from pursuing the insights of Marshall McLuhan or of Buckminster Fuller or of Berdyaev or of anyone else, while ID people pursue the insights provided by modern biochemistry, probability theory, information theory, etc. There can be peace between Human Extension and ID. If there is war instead, the war will be caused, not by ID people, but by Human Extension supporters behaving imperialistically, trying to alter the language of ID and trying to change the behavior of ID proponents. Sincere best wishes for your project of Human Extension. ********************************************************* So I would say to Gregory, regarding his accusation of more than a year later: Where in the above remarks do you find any "intentional attempt" to block fruitful discussion of human extension? And which of the above remarks is "uncharitable"? I would say that the above remarks could be regarded as "uncharitable" only by someone who read them, not for their plain and straightforward meaning, but with a view to uncovering some hidden, sinister motive behind them. In other words, they could be taken as uncharitable only by someone who himself read them uncharitably.Timaeus
September 17, 2013
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William, perhaps you would share the joke. If you meant "atheism" or "naturalism" you could have said. I have no idea what "Darwinism" is supposed to be. What you posted would still be both wrong and an outrageous slur, but at least it would be clearer who you were slurring.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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KN:
As usual in life, there’s more than enough blame to go around, and the “who started it?” is just another way of perpetuating the cycle of violence.
Yes indeed. Which is why I'm not a fan of blame. And why I started a blog where we could try to get beyond that stuff, hard though it is.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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"Darwinism” is not a hypothesis. By any definition of Darwinism, or rape, the view that rape is “nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution” is absurd”. I don’t know what “Darwinism” is, and I am not a “Darwinist”. I said that Darwinian mechanisms, namely self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success are a hypothesis for adaptive evolution. The “hypothesis” does not “condemn rape” because scientific hypotheses don’t condemn anything. They are simply models put forward to account for data.
ROFLWilliam J Murray
September 17, 2013
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Brent:
When one cannot get simple logical and necessary truths, even after being shown time and time again — things as simple as two plus two equals four — then clearly we are not dealing with an intellectual problem. It’s either a lobotomy case, or sin.
What "simple logical and necessary truths" are you referring to? Who has argued that two plus two does not equal four?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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William, what "culture war"?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Upright Biped
You are avoiding the question (and the responsibility) as to whether you think there is an appropriate context for the comments above, recorded on your site. You are stalling this answer because there was no appropriate context for those comments, and you know it.
I have no way of judging the context, Upright Biped, as you refuse to provide any way of me seeing it. Provide the link and I will answer your question.
As a consequence, this demonstrates the hypocrisy you displayed by allowing it to take place for two months, and then effectively blaming me for it. As blog owner and administrator, you provide the rules and make the judgments. For you to dodge that responsibility with some diversion about a link is utter garbage.
Indeed I do. And if you provide a link to where you think I fell short I will tell you whether I agree. Is there some reason why you are so reluctant to provide a link?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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KN, Narcissistic, much? Failure to convince you or anyone that comes here, or those at TSZ, is not the reason I advocate more emphasis on marketing and propaganda techniques via social media or other more broad-based venues. If the goal is to win the culture war, less emphasis should be put on what is at best an ineffective tactic even if, occasionally, an Antony Flew changes his mind about ID. Internet debates such as these, even if they change a few minds, are irrelevant to the cultural war, although they might be personally satisfying. The real effort should be directed at a mass marketing campaign, not door-to-door selling against those who are already convinced your product is no good.William J Murray
September 17, 2013
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Box:
So you are saying, with WJM, that Darwinism does not condemn rape, because it is unable to accommodate morality; which, according to you, it doesn’t have to?
No, I'm saying what I actually said. Go back and check my post. I don't know what "Darwinism" is, and I am not a "Darwinist". I said that Darwinian mechanisms, namely self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success are a hypothesis for adaptive evolution. The "hypothesis" does not "condemn rape" because scientific hypotheses don't condemn anything. They are simply models put forward to account for data.
Naturalism is the absurd hypothesis that what ultimately exist are just fermions and bosons and the physical laws that describe the way these particles and that of the larger objects made up of them behave. These laws make no reference to purposes, designs, final causes, or teleology of any sort.
If that is how you are defining "naturalism" then I am not a naturalist. I think that "larger objects" have properties not possessed by their parts. This properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear. My view is not a minority one.
Oh you didn’t know: Naturalism is also not able to accommodate reason. According to naturalism anything that is real is really just fermions and bosons behaving in the purposeless, meaningless ways described by physics.
Well, the philosophers who have argued that naturalism is compatible with morality, indeed that morality is natural, apparently do not use your definition of naturalism. Not surprisingly, as self-evidently people behave in purposeful meaningful, and indeed moral ways.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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When one cannot get simple logical and necessary truths, even after being shown time and time again --- things as simple as two plus two equals four --- then clearly we are not dealing with an intellectual problem. It's either a lobotomy case, or sin.Brent
September 17, 2013
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I'm sure it doesn't, William. Nonetheless my blog was what your OP specifically references.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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So you assume that because you have not been persuasive, that your readers are “immune to reason” and must be propaganized instead.
My world doesn't revolve around your little blog, Liz. History, the realities of marketing and advertising, and life experience demonstrate the efficacy of good propaganda and marketing over logical argument any day of the week.
I find the arrogance of this statement truly chilling.
I find the feigned naivete of this statement truly laughable.William J Murray
September 17, 2013
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#200 ElizabethBL: It [Darwinism] doesn’t not “accommodate morality” and doesn’t have to, (…)”.
So you are saying, with WJM, that Darwinism does not condemn rape, because it is unable to accommodate morality; which, according to you, it doesn’t have to?
#200 ElizabethBL: Some philosophers have argued that “naturalism” is incompatible with morality. Others have argued that moral systems are reachable by reason and do not require belief in god or gods.
Naturalism is the absurd hypothesis that what ultimately exist are just fermions and bosons and the physical laws that describe the way these particles and that of the larger objects made up of them behave. These laws make no reference to purposes, designs, final causes, or teleology of any sort.
#200 ElizabethBL: Others have argued that moral systems are reachable by reason and do not require belief in god or gods.
Oh you didn’t know: Naturalism is also not able to accommodate reason. According to naturalism anything that is real is really just fermions and bosons behaving in the purposeless, meaningless ways described by physics.Box
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